SY77 won't boot after proactively replacing battery :-(

Yamaha SY77 is a 16 voice multitimbral music workstation first produced by Yamaha Corporation in 1989. The SY77 is a synthesizer whose architecture combines AFM (Advanced Frequency Modulation) synthesis, AWM2 (Advanced Wave Memory 2) for ROM-borne sample-based synthesis, and the combination of these two methods christened Realtime Convolution and Modulation Synthesis (RCM).

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Re: SY77 won't boot after proactively replacing battery :-(

Unread post by SY77Lover » Thu Oct 05, 2017 10:03 pm

Derek wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:07 pm
Hello. This will be a very dumb question, but have you actually measured the battery voltage? It should be reading 3.2V or thereabouts. If not then the SYs are renowned for boot problems if the battery voltage is down (to answer your question).

TBH, I would not have gone for another soldered battery, I would have put a battery holder in its place and used a stock CR2032.

See this guide of mine for an SY99 (applicable to the SY77 as well, but only one battery required)

http://www.xfactory-librarians.co.uk/Do ... cement.pdf
Did all SY77's come with this battery? I'm asking because I'm basically besides myself wondering how my own SY77 can be working completely flawlessly when I've never changed a battery in it, and I bought it brand new back in '89 while living in Japan. Roughly 20 years ago I took the bottom cover off of it to blow out accumulated dust and dirt after returning to the US with it, and I never noticed a battery on the boards that are exposed with the bottom off.

Is it at all possible that there were some SY77's produced without such a battery? I'm questioning because I just can't imagine if mine does have a battery and if a low battery would cause booting issues, or any other issues for that matter, why in the world could/would my SY77 still be functioning flawlessly with a 28 year old battery in it. I'm also concerned because I worry that at any time it may encounter such booting issues, etc. if it does in fact have a battery in it.

Does any of you SY77 owners have the manual for this board? If so, is there any place in the manual that references the battery? I have the English version of the manual that I had to purchase as an optional component because the manual that came with the board was in Japanese. And this manual I have does not reference anything in regards to an internal battery at all. If your manual does and mine doesn't, it could be that my board wasn't produced with such a battery, or.....the battery reference in the manual was "lost in translation".



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Re: SY77 won't boot after proactively replacing battery :-(

Unread post by Derek » Thu Oct 05, 2017 10:39 pm

Yes, all SYs need that battery to retain the memory contents when the synth is powered off. If there was no battery or it was down you would lose the contents of the patch memory.

Whilst the batteries are quoted as having an expected 5 year life, for example, I did not change my 1987 DX7II battery until 2009 or there about. Same for my other synths, the batteries tend to last for a lot longer.

If you look at my SY77 display upgrade guide on my xfactory librarians page (see signature link), you can clearly see the battery in the photo on page 5 in the middle of the DM1 board and slightly to the left. It's the disk shaped component with the yellow edge


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Re: SY77 won't boot after proactively replacing battery :-(

Unread post by SY77Lover » Fri Oct 06, 2017 4:06 pm

Derek wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 10:39 pm
Yes, all SYs need that battery to retain the memory contents when the synth is powered off. If there was no battery or it was down you would lose the contents of the patch memory.

Whilst the batteries are quoted as having an expected 5 year life, for example, I did not change my 1987 DX7II battery until 2009 or there about. Same for my other synths, the batteries tend to last for a lot longer.

If you look at my SY77 display upgrade guide on my xfactory librarians page (see signature link), you can clearly see the battery in the photo on page 5 in the middle of the DM1 board and slightly to the left. It's the disk shaped component with the yellow edge
What exactly is the patch memory? I'll check out your link shortly, but just out of curiosity, is the battery visible with the bottom cover removed or is it in a place where components need to be removed in order to gain access to the battery or the board where the battery is installed?

Update: Ok Derek, I just got done scanning over your battery replacement link. Good stuff. So I see that the battery should be visible once the bottom cover is removed. Note: The SY99 has two batteries, whereas the SY77 only has one (yes?). Out of shear curiosity, I'm going to open up my SY77 over the weekend just so see if mine has this battery in it.



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Re: SY77 won't boot after proactively replacing battery :-(

Unread post by Derek » Fri Oct 06, 2017 5:58 pm

Patch memory, is the memory that your Voices/Multi's etc are stored in. This is "static" memory, which doesn't retain its contents when powered off unless you keep a voltage applied to it, which is why you need the battery to supply that voltage.

The SY99 has two batteries as one of them is to retain the contents of its sample memory (which the SY77 does not have).

If you go to the effort of getting the cover off, I would get a volt meter and measure the battery voltage to see if it needs changing. Don't forget to back your data up first!


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Re: SY77 won't boot after proactively replacing battery :-(

Unread post by SY77Lover » Fri Oct 06, 2017 7:11 pm

Derek wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 5:58 pm
Patch memory, is the memory that your Voices/Multi's etc are stored in. This is "static" memory, which doesn't retain its contents when powered off unless you keep a voltage applied to it, which is why you need the battery to supply that voltage.

The SY99 has two batteries as one of them is to retain the contents of its sample memory (which the SY77 does not have).

If you go to the effort of getting the cover off, I would get a volt meter and measure the battery voltage to see if it needs changing. Don't forget to back your data up first!
This is all very interesting. I got to tell you, from what you've explained, my SY77 has always been like that from back when it was brand new, where it does not retain it's contents when powered off. I lost a bunch of early work and settings, etc. whatnot when I was first learning how to use this board. Basically I figured saving all on the floppy was what needed to be done to retain everything. Once I power the board back up and upload a file from the floppy disk, everything would be there again like it was during my previous session.

I'll let you know what I find out this weekend in regards to the battery and if it's in there what it's voltage reads.



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Re: SY77 won't boot after proactively replacing battery :-(

Unread post by SY77Lover » Sat Oct 07, 2017 5:30 am

Derek wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 5:58 pm
Patch memory, is the memory that your Voices/Multi's etc are stored in. This is "static" memory, which doesn't retain its contents when powered off unless you keep a voltage applied to it, which is why you need the battery to supply that voltage.

The SY99 has two batteries as one of them is to retain the contents of its sample memory (which the SY77 does not have).

If you go to the effort of getting the cover off, I would get a volt meter and measure the battery voltage to see if it needs changing. Don't forget to back your data up first!
Just finished putting the bottom cover back on the board. You're right. My SY77 has the battery. I didn't test it though to check voltage. I can do that some other time as its only 16 or so screws and right there after the cover is removed. if there is a time I need to replace it, I'll do so. I attached a few pix of the inside. Wow, look at the dates on these circuit board components. A long long time ago.

By the way, I did find a few cat hairs here and there inside. Knew i would.
Attachments
image.jpg
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image.jpg
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Re: SY77 won't boot after proactively replacing battery :-(

Unread post by Derek » Sat Oct 07, 2017 10:10 am

If your synth is not retaining its contents between power cycles, you probably have a dud battery.


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Re: SY77 won't boot after proactively replacing battery :-(

Unread post by SY77Lover » Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:16 am

Derek wrote:
Sat Oct 07, 2017 10:10 am
If your synth is not retaining its contents between power cycles, you probably have a dud battery.
Oh yeah. I'd bet it's completely dead. 28 years old. Evidently it's not really effected my usage of the board though since I always save everything to the floppy before shutting it down every time.

So why can't the factory battery just pop out of the bracket that it's in? What keeps the battery from being removed from that bracket, without having to replace the entire thing? It's not like the Japanese to design something which is difficult and work intense. The battery holder seems like one of those things they would have designed to be easy to replace, not have to be removed and re soldered. I think they blew it on that one if that's the case. If this board was designed and manufactured in the US, it would then make perfect sense why just to change a battery requires a major evolution - just like working on all GM make and model vehicles, and then some.



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Re: SY77 won't boot after proactively replacing battery :-(

Unread post by shadowmask » Sun Oct 08, 2017 8:22 am

The original battery has those legs tacked-on so you cannot remove it from the bracket. This is the most cost-effective way for the factory to have the battery fitted. The legs help prevent the battery overheating during the solder process. A battery holder just costs more but not a big cost, other synths from that era have a battery holder so why not Yamaha..? It's just a hassle to remove the PCB to get at it properly.

I think the battery is fitted before the wave-solder process but to stop excessive shorting by the solder wave they isolate the battery from the rest of the circuit by keeping the pads at CP101 open then add a solder blob there to connect the battery afterwards.

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Re: SY77 won't boot after proactively replacing battery :-(

Unread post by Saul » Sun Oct 08, 2017 9:42 am

It's always a mystery why companies do things like this but you can be pretty sure it will be down to cost savings more than anything else. If it were more cost effective to fit a battery holder that allowed quite replacement of the battery you can bet Yamaha would have done it. As it is it seems not.

Having said that, it's not a massive task to desolder the original and fit a holder and it's a useful selling point should at some time you decide to sell. Some people are massively put off by the thought of replacing a battery on something like this so the easier it is the better :)


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Re: SY77 won't boot after proactively replacing battery :-(

Unread post by SY77Lover » Tue Oct 10, 2017 5:10 pm

Well, come first rainfall of this winter (this will keep me indoors long enough to do this work), I'll change the battery. I'm already good with soldering because of another hobby of mine (radio controlled aircraft). Silver solder has always really worked well for me, along with a quality soldering gun and proper soldering technique.

I'm actually quite curious now to see what the board will be like with a new battery in it. I think over the years I just adapted my processes and procedures on the board to coincide with the SY77 without a functional internal battery.



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Re: SY77 won't boot after proactively replacing battery :-(

Unread post by parametric » Wed Oct 11, 2017 12:22 am

I would just mention SY77Lover - bear in mind the Sy77 is an old board and would have been put together with old-style solder (60:40 Pb/Sn IIRC).

The new Pb-Free solders don't work too well when trying to repair pcbs that have the older stuff on them.

You should be able to buy the older formulation still - though it might require a specialist dealer . . .

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Re: SY77 won't boot after proactively replacing battery :-(

Unread post by SY77Lover » Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:56 pm

parametric wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 12:22 am
I would just mention SY77Lover - bear in mind the Sy77 is an old board and would have been put together with old-style solder (60:40 Pb/Sn IIRC).

The new Pb-Free solders don't work too well when trying to repair pcbs that have the older stuff on them.

You should be able to buy the older formulation still - though it might require a specialist dealer . . .

parametric
Thanks for the information. In that case, I may choose to remove that board and take it with me the next time I go to Japan. When I get there I can bring it to the Yamaha service center and have them replace it for me. I'm only experienced with the newest forms of solder, which is the silver solder. Plus my experiences with soldering is limited to the application of radio control electronics and electrical systems. I'm really not in the mood to mess up my beloved SY77 after being with it throughout all the years.



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Re: SY77 won't boot after proactively replacing battery :-(

Unread post by Derek » Wed Oct 11, 2017 10:23 pm

TBH if you can solder with silver solder, you can solder with lead solder. Whilst lead solder is considered by some to be harmful, you'd have to inhale quite a lot of it! I undertook electronics daily for over twenty years without a fume extractor in site and don't think I suffered too much....

And it is easy to buy lead solder from any reasonable distributor like RS components, as you cannot wipe out its use for maintaining old kit. What the regs have done is ban the use of lead solder in new equipment.

So I'd say its a tad overkill to take a board to Japan just to put a battery holder on. It really is an easy job, trust me. :)


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Re: SY77 won't boot after proactively replacing battery :-(

Unread post by SY77Lover » Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:48 am

Derek wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 10:23 pm
TBH if you can solder with silver solder, you can solder with lead solder. Whilst lead solder is considered by some to be harmful, you'd have to inhale quite a lot of it! I undertook electronics daily for over twenty years without a fume extractor in site and don't think I suffered too much....

And it is easy to buy lead solder from any reasonable distributor like RS components, as you cannot wipe out its use for maintaining old kit. What the regs have done is ban the use of lead solder in new equipment.

So I'd say its a tad overkill to take a board to Japan just to put a battery holder on. It really is an easy job, trust me. :)
Thanks for the info Derek. No, I wouldn't be going to Japan just for this. I do travel there quite frequently (twice per year two months each time). I'd only bring it with me if I decided not to try replacing and resoldering it myself and if I'm just so happening to be going at that particular time.



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