Mixer "in and outs"

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LNovik
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Mixer "in and outs"

Unread post by LNovik » Sat Jun 23, 2018 11:46 am

Hi,
Excuse my lack of basic knowledge about the intricacies of how mixers work. I just replaced a 14 channel Mackie mixer with a 24 channel Yamaha. Understandably, not everything is the same—or, at least, labeled as being the same. For instance, I have been using an Alesis Midiverb3 reverb unit for vocals on one of my mikes. I have done this by what I thought is a common way: sending 1 cable from the “aux send” jack on the Mackie to the left Input jack on the reverb unit, and then 2 cables from the Output jacks on the reverb unit to 2 “Stereo aux return” jacks on the mixer. At least, that’s how I think it was hooked up--I did this years ago. Now, on my Yamaha, I don’t see these corresponding jacks.

I do realize that the Yamaha has internal reverb and other effects, but I’d still like to have the option of using the effects on this Alesis unit. Any ideas of what the equivalency on the Yamaha would be? I see something in the manual about ringed cables and am hoping I don’t have to buy special jacks.
Thanks.
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Re: Mixer "in and outs"

Unread post by Saul » Sat Jun 23, 2018 1:01 pm

Hi LNovik and welcome to yamahamusicians.com :)

I can see what you are trying to do.

How I do it is to take the mic direct into the mixer. Then send (aux send) out to the reverb unit returning the signal back into the mixer so creating an effects loop. This means you can then control the amount of reverb applied to the mic input via the mixer. The reverb can also be shared amongst all the other channels if required and the amount of reverb dry/wet for each channel set from the mixer itself.

Can you tell us exactly what model Yamaha mixer you have?
Saul
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Re: Mixer "in and outs"

Unread post by parametric » Sat Jun 23, 2018 1:18 pm

Hi LNovik - and welcome to the forums . . . .

To advise you better, we need to know WHICH mixer you have . . . . .

The routing you describe sounds correct, but Yamaha often devise ways of doing things in their products, that are special to the product, and so may be unfamiliar.

The <send> <return> principle is well understood, and I doubt that Yamaha have EXCLUDED the possibility to use outboard gear if required.

I suspect it's just a naming thing.

The only "handle" on "ringed" I can think of is - as in Tip-Ring-Sleeve BALANCED line jacks (ins and outs) which should be a "given" on decent gear.

Let us know WHICH Mixer - so we can get a look at the Manual - and help unravel this :wink:

parametric
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Re: Mixer "in and outs"

Unread post by LNovik » Sat Jun 23, 2018 11:20 pm

Thanks you, Saul and parametric,
My mixer model is MGP24X.
Several points re these replies.
1)Saul tell me to hook up the aux send jack to, I assume, the input jack of the effects unit. He doesn't then say that I have to then hook up a cable from the "output" jack of the effects unit. Since there IS an OUtput pair of jacks, I would assume that would be something I would need to connect to complete the cycle. However, if I DO have to hook something from the "Output" jacks on the effects unit, where on the Yamaha mixer do I place the other end of the cords?
Secondly, it seems like the "aux send" only comes in an XLR jack. I noticed just now that my Alesis effects unit, dare I say, does not have any XLR jacks. I guess I could just find an XLR on 1 side with 1 or 2 "guitar jacks" on the other side of the cord, or, I guess, buy an adapter for 1 side of the XLR jack.
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Re: Mixer "in and outs"

Unread post by parametric » Sun Jun 24, 2018 3:19 am

If I read the Manual correctly (p22), it looks like you need a Yamaha Insert lead (YIC025/050/070).

Yamaha Insert lead.jpg
I'm guessing the numerals refer to available lengths in cm . . .

My advice would be to buy ONE. You could MAKE more then, (if you can be bothered) using the bought one to check the wiring etc . .

I suppose this approach of combining the send/return in one lead saves a socket on each of the mixer channels?

I'm sure I've seen this elsewhere, so I don't think it's particularly a Yamaha special . . . .

As regards the Auxes - they are outputs.

The usual convention with BALANCED leads is that XLRs are used for MICS. The leads are (XLR-Male to XLR-Female)

When you have a mic plugged to one end of the cable, the OTHER END will fit your Mixer Mic INPUT sockets (XLR)

This will also carry the 48v phantom power for condenser mics, if you are using them.

The other "convention" with XLRs is the "The signal comes out of the PINS" - so a Mixer OUTPUT socket will have PINS facing you (Male).

Conversely, an XLR input socket will have HOLES facing you . . .(Female)

(Stage Boxes (used for running multicore from mixer to Stage) will SOMETIMES include a few "foreigners" that fly in the face of this convention, and are normally provided "in case you have the wrong lead to hand" :lol: )

Check the end of a Microphone . . . . you'll see PINS facing you - i.e. it's an OUTPUT :)

TRS Jack to jacks are balanced LINE leads - for anything that's NOT a Mic . . .

Pro Systems are balanced throughout . . . . to eliminate hum, noise etc.

Balanced leads will also allow LONG cables, without problems.

Caution: MANY instruments have UNbalanced outputs (except the most expensive Flagship Synths (usually)) so ideally these should be

connected to a balanced system using a Balancing-Box - which converts the unbalanced (TS) signal to TRS for the mixer . . .

These are also known as DI Boxes - for direct connection of Guitars/Basses.

They can be PASSIVE (No Gain) or ACTIVE (With Gain)

(If cables are SHORT, you may get away with unbalanced connections without issue, but it's generally best to use

ALL balanced - for a quiet life :wink: (IYSWIM)

Other sources, such as Domestic CD Players typically have Phono (RCA) outputs usually L+R - so THESE sources are used with

the STEREO channels on the Desk, that typically have Phono (RCA) inputs - and will have a BALANCE control (Rather than a PAN).

One final point . . . CONSUMER Line Level (e.g. CD Players) is -10dBa, whereas PRO Line Level is +4dBA - which kinda makes sense.

A BIG signal needs less amplification further on, and is naturally LOW(er) Noise anyway(Y)

hope that helps 8)

parametric
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Re: Mixer "in and outs"

Unread post by LNovik » Sun Jun 24, 2018 11:37 am

Thanks for that info. So, I get that I should buy one of these cables, and you've labeled it very clearly, as does the manual. Thanks. HOWEVER...I now want to be sure where to plug in the other(single) end. I realize it goes into an insert jack, but is it--as I'm guessing---the insert jack that appears on each channel, or at least the first 20 channels approx? Or is it 1 of the stereo inserts that is located on the L rear of the mixer.
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Re: Mixer "in and outs"

Unread post by LNovik » Sun Jun 24, 2018 2:12 pm

That wording is a little obscure. If not clear, what I mean to say is: I see an "Insert" jack right in a vertical line with the XLR and phone jack of each channel-or at least the first 20 or so channels. So do I plug in the single end of this special cable into that OR into 1 of the the stereo inserts on the left side of the back?
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Re: Mixer "in and outs"

Unread post by parametric » Sun Jun 24, 2018 7:02 pm

The way I read it, is that the TRS Jack goes into the <Insert> socket of whichever channel you choose.

The two TS Jacks go to the <in> and <out> of your Alesis unit . . . .

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Re: Mixer "in and outs"

Unread post by SysExJohn » Sun Jun 24, 2018 8:26 pm

Chris (Parametric) is quite right, and the manual for the Alesis bears it out.

No need to send off to Yamaha for a lead tho', an Insert cable is available as a standard item.
Just go to Amazon (or eBay, etc.) and search for "insert cable", you'll find loads to choose from, from cheapies at 5 or 6 pounds (UK prices) to quality ones with Neutrik connectors at 15 or 16. Neutrik connectors are the best.

The TS ends are often labelled "tip" and "ring".
The TRS end goes into the "insert" socket belonging to the mixer channel that the mic is plugged into.
Note that the Alesis manual says "for mono use use the right hand input and output sockets."
(Unusual that, most mixers send and receive mono on the left hand channel of a stereo channel pair, IME.)

Make sure you buy one at about the right length, depending how far the Alesis will be situated from the mixer.

I use one in my Mackie mixer to add a Behringer Shark feedback killer to a microphone channel.
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Re: Mixer "in and outs"

Unread post by LNovik » Sun Jun 24, 2018 11:35 pm

Thanks. Very helpful. I had thought it was the left of a stereo pair if using mono, so that's also a help. I've already ordered the cords.
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Re: Mixer "in and outs"

Unread post by LNovik » Thu Jul 05, 2018 8:55 pm

OK, I have now hooked up the special Insert cable I got, and inserted the single end into the insert jack on the same channel that I have attached my mike SLR plug to. However, I am used to having something on the mixer to allow a certain amount of that effect to be let in. I CAN allow more or less of the mixed sound using then controls on my Reverb effects unit that this is attached to it. But, as I said, I would think there would be a way on the mixer to regulate the amount of reverb as well. It seems all of the aux dials are unrelated to these insert jacks--at least to my understanding.
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Re: Mixer "in and outs"

Unread post by parametric » Fri Jul 06, 2018 1:47 am

The Manual seems to be not much help at all.

It's all "banging on" about the internal FX as far as I can see.

Looking at the Channels themselves, I can't see how you can blend the return into the main signal . . .

There IS a control shown in the schematic (p14), that is ASSOCIATED with the INSERT, called COMP (TR) whatever that means . . .

But WHERE that control is I couldn't say . . .


Yamaha insert control.jpg

PERHAPS its hidden in a menu somewhere - which is NOT helpful.

With mixers (IMO) the whole point is to have EVERYTHING under your fingers . . .

perhaps someone else can help here? I've only ever used SoundCraft mixers . . . .

parametric
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Re: Mixer "in and outs"

Unread post by LNovik » Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:10 am

"Comp," in this mixer stands, I believe, for compressor. This mixer does have that tool.
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Re: Mixer "in and outs"

Unread post by parametric » Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:38 pm

Yes indeed . . . . it does.

But, YOU are interested in using an EXTERNAL unit, and the Manual seems precious little help on how to do so.

It would seem that the only recourse is to adjust the OUTPUT level ON your external unit . . . .

Unless I'm just not seeing something that is there . . . . .

(I would have thought that there should be a fader to do this ON THE MIXER?)

Does anyone know any different? . . . .

parametric
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Watch out now! take care, BEWARE of the greedy leaders! They'll take you where you should not go - (George Harrison)

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Re: Mixer "in and outs"

Unread post by Buzzard » Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:10 pm

Better late than never, I'll throw in a pdf manual:

Yamaha MGP-24 mixer.pdf
(6.89 MiB) Downloaded 14 times
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