Yamaha Montage vs. SY99/SY77 - differences

Welcome to the new era from the company that brought you the DX and the Motif. Montage sets the next milestone with sophisticated dynamic control, massive sound creation and streamlined workflow.

Moderators: Derek, parametric, Saul

User avatar Japan
Monte
Member
Member
Posts: 84
Joined: Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:50 am

Yamaha Montage vs. SY99/SY77 - differences

Unread post by Monte » Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:03 am

Phil Clendeninn wrote a very interesting post about this as a reply on Yamahasynth.
Link
Last edited by Monte on Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.
((i))
User avatar United States of America
DrSynth
Member
Member
Posts: 76
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:58 pm

Re: Yamaha Montage vs. SY99/SY77 - differences

Unread post by DrSynth » Sun Nov 05, 2017 2:26 am

Monte -- Nice thorough comparison, well done!

I'll chime in re: "portability" or conversion of sounds across Yamaha's various FM implementations. Short answer is that it will be very hit and miss, and specific to particular patches, due to the differences or 4 Ops vs 6 Ops vs 8 Ops and Sine vs non-Sine Ops and 4 Stage vs 6 Stage looping envelopes in the FM engine architectures.

In the context of AFM -> FM-X there are potentially so many extreme variances in algorithm, Operator Waveform and Feedback loops in AFM that I would say the likelyhood of porting or converting a sound from the SY99/77 to Montage is negligible. Especially if the AFM patch uses any Operator phase shift or 'concentric' feedback loops with zero frequency Operators. BTW -- To clarify, I mean a 'native" SY77/99 patch, not a converted DX7 patch that was enhanced in the AFM engine -- those could probably be re-worked to get pretty close in FM-X.

A comment about RCM. IIRC the genesis of the implementation was an attempt at FM based re-synthesis. It wasn't supposed to use "harmonically complete" i.e. acoustic instrument samples as modulators. Imagine if you took a piano sample, applied some mathematical transforms to it to create an AWM waveform. Then use that wave as a modulator into the AFM engine with a specfic algorithm created in free algorithm edit, with precise Operator Ratio, phase and feedback settings that then would dynamically recreate the original sample -- that's where they were trying to take it. Think of the "proper" RCM modulator being a reduced overtone waveform with a complex overtone evolution over time.

I've had the Montage and SY99 side by side for about 6 months. In a broad stroke comparison, they are sort of a yin and yang to one another. There's really cool and unique things each one does that the other can't touch. FM-X is about building reasonably complex harmonic structures with the ability for extremely complex realtime control. The AFM is about builiding extremely unique complex harmonic structures with reasonably versatile control.

Manny
FM Rig of DOOM!! Yamaha Montage 7, SY99's x8 , TG77's x4, Reface DX,FS1r, DX200, DX7II FD E!, DX7II FD, TX802
Yamaha VL1v2 & VL70m
Kurzweil K2000, Korg Wavestation EX, Kawai K1, Sequential Pro One, Arp Odyssey
What's a Roland ...?
YouTube FM Tutorials: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXY8GT ... R0TSw/feed
SoundCloud FM Examples: https://soundcloud.com/manny-fernandez-4856421
User avatar Japan
Monte
Member
Member
Posts: 84
Joined: Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:50 am

Re: Yamaha Montage vs. SY99/SY77 - differences

Unread post by Monte » Sun Nov 05, 2017 9:40 am

DrSynth, thanks for the good info.
I understand you didn't stay with the Montage? I personally love it. and all this talk about different FM architecture gave me the conclusion that I should augment my studio with an SY99, the sooner the better! to me, a good synth is all about its sound. and I want to have and experiment with all the wealth of sounds the SY77/99 had to offer.
((i))
User avatar Sweden
matro
Posts: 4
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2017 12:05 pm

Re: Yamaha Montage vs. SY99/SY77 - differences

Unread post by matro » Sun Nov 05, 2017 1:04 pm

I own both a TG77 and a Montage, and the thing I really like with the FM-X in Montage is the ability to create modern TX816 sounds and ofcourse how much better the complete package (including efx, etc etc) sounds sitting in my productions.
I did get the TG-77 years ago to get the DX-sound in the studio, but mostly ended up using sampled version on the productions.

No, I am not one of those, "the older the better" type of person. :lol:
And no, I am not into electronic music... :wink:

/Mathias
--
Musician | IT expert | Gothenburg, Sweden
User avatar Japan
Monte
Member
Member
Posts: 84
Joined: Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:50 am

Re: Yamaha Montage vs. SY99/SY77 - differences

Unread post by Monte » Sun Nov 05, 2017 1:35 pm

matro wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 1:04 pm
I own both a TG77 and a Montage, and the thing I really like with the FM-X in Montage is the ability to create modern TX816 sounds and ofcourse how much better the complete package (including efx, etc etc) sounds sitting in my productions.
I did get the TG-77 years ago to get the DX-sound in the studio, but mostly ended up using sampled version on the productions.

No, I am not one of those, "the older the better" type of person. :lol:
And no, I am not into electronic music... :wink:

/Mathias
I'm totally with you on the FM-X side of things. 128 note polyphony for the FM-X side alone is gigantic, not to mention the ease of direct editing, the clean sound, those operators sound great.
I'm getting into programming some TX816 sounds myself after some deep dive in the two TX816 e. piano performances on board the Montage. I love how multi-dimensional it can become.

Perhaps you'll be willing to share some nice perfs in that vein in the future. (Y)
((i))
User avatar United States of America
DrSynth
Member
Member
Posts: 76
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:58 pm

Re: Yamaha Montage vs. SY99/SY77 - differences

Unread post by DrSynth » Sun Nov 05, 2017 7:51 pm

Monte wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 9:40 am
DrSynth, thanks for the good info.
I understand you didn't stay with the Montage? I personally love it. and all this talk about different FM architecture gave me the conclusion that I should augment my studio with an SY99, the sooner the better! to me, a good synth is all about its sound. and I want to have and experiment with all the wealth of sounds the SY77/99 had to offer.
Monte, to clarify the context of the "had them side by side" comment, I meant that I "had" just started programming the Montage about 6 months ago -- I still have and am working with the Montage.

As Matias notes, the polyphony of the Montage allows for making sounds ala' the TX816 in a modern package, by stacking, combining and blending individual FM-X Parts like they are TF1 modules in a 'component' voicing approach which is extremely powerful. An old inside joke from way back in the day "... nothing wrong with FM that more Operators can't fix..."

The SY99/77 in Multi mode with can do the same thing, but it's a polyphony issue, which brings up a personal embarrassing admission about my questionably 'unhealthy' affinity for the AFM architecture. Working with the Montage has led me to expand my AFM arsenal to 6 SY99's and 3 TG77's to be able to start creating some extreme AFM voices. My wife thinks I'm ill :oops:

There's really unique and cool behaviors, timbres and quirks hiding in all of Yamaha's FM Synths. RefaceDX doesn't get a lot of love but I really dig it -- here's a link to a track I did as part of a programming tutorial I did last year for YamahaSynth.com:

https://soundcloud.com/manny-fernandez- ... pata-remix

A similar tutorial will be completed soon for Montage.

Manny
FM Rig of DOOM!! Yamaha Montage 7, SY99's x8 , TG77's x4, Reface DX,FS1r, DX200, DX7II FD E!, DX7II FD, TX802
Yamaha VL1v2 & VL70m
Kurzweil K2000, Korg Wavestation EX, Kawai K1, Sequential Pro One, Arp Odyssey
What's a Roland ...?
YouTube FM Tutorials: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXY8GT ... R0TSw/feed
SoundCloud FM Examples: https://soundcloud.com/manny-fernandez-4856421
User avatar Japan
Monte
Member
Member
Posts: 84
Joined: Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:50 am

Re: Yamaha Montage vs. SY99/SY77 - differences

Unread post by Monte » Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:02 pm

Good to know you're keeping the Montage, it's a real keeper. I just wondered.

Do you have tips and tricks for successful TX816 programming? what I basically understand by deconstructing the two TX performances on the Montage is panning and detune in 4 pairs. Have you discovered any shortcuts for detuning and panning quickly?

I guess it will work great on strings and pads just as it does on FM keys. maybe I could also use this technique on brass, leads?
((i))
User avatar France
Moessieurs
Member
Member
Posts: 16
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 11:25 pm
Contact:

Re: Yamaha Montage vs. SY99/SY77 - differences

Unread post by Moessieurs » Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:37 pm

Thank you guys, very instructive topic ;)
Montage 7-Motif XF8-Reface CP&DX-DXR12/MG124Cx/Line 6 StageScape M20d/Ketron SD2/Numark IDJ Pro/ Tc Helicon Voice Live Touch.
User avatar United States of America
DrSynth
Member
Member
Posts: 76
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:58 pm

Re: Yamaha Montage vs. SY99/SY77 - differences

Unread post by DrSynth » Sun Nov 05, 2017 11:56 pm

Monte wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:02 pm
Good to know you're keeping the Montage, it's a real keeper. I just wondered.

Do you have tips and tricks for successful TX816 programming? what I basically understand by deconstructing the two TX performances on the Montage is panning and detune in 4 pairs. Have you discovered any shortcuts for detuning and panning quickly?

I guess it will work great on strings and pads just as it does on FM keys. maybe I could also use this technique on brass, leads?
Progamming the TX816 is more than just panning and detuning a bunch of the same patches layered togther.

Take Strings as an example, here's a way to approach the TX816. While you might start with the 3 TF1's with the same patch base string sound detuned and panned hard left, center, and hard right the first thing would be to make sure they all had slightly different LFO speeds and delays. Then with another 2 TF1's you'd again have duplicate patches loaded up, but with say a completely different 'hard bowed' string type timbre, maybe a with extremely wide velocity senstivity, detuned and maybe panned 50% right and 50% left, again different LFO delay, rate and depth and maybe sine wave LFO instead of triangle. Then another 2 TF1's, where one is providing enhancements to the timbres and character of the low range notes, and another does the same for the higher range notes that you can't do with Level Scaling alone -- a lot of those differences need different Operator Frequency Ratios, maybe a fixed frequency (or two) and different envelopes etc.

So you blend together a layered / split / additive approach to the final sound with each TF1. In the Montage, those would be separate Parts.

For an electric piano, similar approach, start with a 'base' sound, add another part for all the electro-mechanical noisy and clonky bits. Then layer / pan / detune to taste, add a part for just the very high and one for very low velocity timbres, another one or two split high and low for the different regions of tine overtones etc. and you're there.

Manny
FM Rig of DOOM!! Yamaha Montage 7, SY99's x8 , TG77's x4, Reface DX,FS1r, DX200, DX7II FD E!, DX7II FD, TX802
Yamaha VL1v2 & VL70m
Kurzweil K2000, Korg Wavestation EX, Kawai K1, Sequential Pro One, Arp Odyssey
What's a Roland ...?
YouTube FM Tutorials: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXY8GT ... R0TSw/feed
SoundCloud FM Examples: https://soundcloud.com/manny-fernandez-4856421
User avatar Japan
Monte
Member
Member
Posts: 84
Joined: Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:50 am

Re: Yamaha Montage vs. SY99/SY77 - differences

Unread post by Monte » Mon Nov 06, 2017 8:31 am

DrSynth,

what you write is very interesting. and it's a concept I'm familiar with, just not with the TX816.

Thank you for sharing from your experience, sounds like you have lots of experience programming FM!

I used layering in multi tracking in many instances, one time in particular I produced a piece with a high energy piano part, I had 12 channels for this one. panned, slightly detuned, octaved, chorused, moved a few milliseconds forward/back in the timeline, etc. then in the mix I leveled it to have a really multi dimensional sound.

This concept should be used with the TX816 - I can already begin to imagine how it would sound.

Care to share some performances? would be nice.
((i))
User avatar Sweden
matro
Posts: 4
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2017 12:05 pm

Re: Yamaha Montage vs. SY99/SY77 - differences

Unread post by matro » Sat Dec 29, 2018 5:05 pm

Monte wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 1:35 pm
Perhaps you'll be willing to share some nice perfs in that vein in the future. (Y)
You can convert the original TX816 presets and play around?
That is what I did.
Post Reply

Return to “Yamaha Montage Forum”