Yamaha P-105 midi issue

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mp3ireland2
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Yamaha P-105 midi issue

Unread post by mp3ireland2 »

Hi,
I'm trying to control my P-105 programs with midi controls, using mobilsheets to send the signal when I load up a tune.
The issue I'm having is that for example if i'm on the strings program and send the signal to the piano to change to piano 1, it combines stringes with piano 1 instead of just changing to it. I have tried in midiosx also and am having no joy there either. I am using the midi reference here : https://jp.yamaha.com/files/download/ot ... _mr_a0.pdf
and think i've all the settings correct but can't get it sorted.
Anybody any expierence of using midi to change programs on a yamaha piano?



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Re: Yamaha P-105 midi issue

Unread post by Saul »

Hi and welcome to yamhamusicians.com :)

Unfortunately being mainly an acoustic guitarist and someone who prefers the "plug in and go" approach to keyboards, my midi skills are sorely lacking. However we have plenty of midi experts on the forum so do hang in there, someone will be able to guide you in the right direction soon :)
Saul
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SeaGtGruff
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Re: Yamaha P-105 midi issue

Unread post by SeaGtGruff »

I believe you mentioned (on another forum) that you are sending the MIDI on channel 2, correct? From what you're saying about the two sounds being combined, it seems that channel 1 is playing the Acoustic Grand Piano sound and channel 2 is playing whatever voice you're trying to select, such as Strings. You might try sending the MIDI to the P-105 on channel 1 rather than channel 2. I realize (from the other forum) that you're also sending MIDI to a synth (a MOX?), and you're using channel 1 for the synth, but you should be able to send different data to the different instruments using the same channel, since each instrument has its own MIDI port-- that is, since you aren't daisy-chaining the two keyboards together using MIDI Thru and sending the combined data for both instruments via a single port.
Michael Rideout
Current keyboards: Yamaha YPT-400, PSR-E433, PSR-E443, PSR-EW400, MX49 BK
Current controllers: M-Audio Axiom 61-II
Previous keyboards: Farfisa Matador 611; Casio CTK-710

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mp3ireland2
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Re: Yamaha P-105 midi issue

Unread post by mp3ireland2 »

Yeah I've reverted to channel one, the default midi in for the p105 was all channels so when I found that out I was optimistic that could be an issue, so now I have p105 set to receive on channel 1 and am sending it on channel 1 from my tablet. I'm hoping it's something simple that a fellow p105 owner knows. I must try the transpose codes this evening, as they might work fine, which is actually more important as playing in wrong key worse than playing with wrong sound!

Looking at it again the manual see :
Normally the instrument will respond to MIDI program change numbers received from a computer, causing the same numbered voice
to be selected on the corresponding channel (the keyboard voice does not change).
So this means it's impossible to get the keyboard voice to change.

Like you said in the previous forum I may have to send the midi to the tablet, and get it to echo the signal back if I wanted a different sound, I'd be worried about the lag here so I think it's time to give up and adjust things manually! I'll try that this evening, just see if there is a delay, it seems a bit long winded! But that could be what's happening that the local voice is still the same but i'm getting the added voice back through the midi.

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parametric
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Re: Yamaha P-105 midi issue

Unread post by parametric »

You may need to check that the P-105 is set to ALLOW program/bank changes . . . . via midi IN?

There may even be a filter setting ( a page of check boxes) where you can select which messages

are allowed through?

The <Bank> and <Program> boxes might need to be checked before it will respond as you expect?

perhaps this helps?

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mp3ireland2
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Re: Yamaha P-105 midi issue

Unread post by mp3ireland2 »

parametric wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 4:31 pm
You may need to check that the P-105 is set to ALLOW program/bank changes . . . . via midi IN?

There may even be a filter setting ( a page of check boxes) where you can select which messages

are allowed through?

The <Bank> and <Program> boxes might need to be checked before it will respond as you expect?

perhaps this helps?

parametric
Thanks for the reply, I had ensured the settings were all correct on the piano, it seems like it's not possible to modify the sounds that you are playing, only to modify the midi signal it sends out. I was hoping i'd find a P105 owner into their midi on the internet somewhere but I've tried a few forums and spent many hours trying before i read the line quoted above in the manual, saying the sounds on the keyboard itself don't change.

I've instead opted to put a blank page in front of songs i transpose in mobilesheets and change the voice on in red saying what key and what instrument in red and one at the end telling me to tune back to standard tuning and go back to piano!

Was more important to get things sorted for the Roland XP-50 synth which works seamlessly responding to midi signals for patch and transpose requests, so makes gigs a lot smoother and less frantic!

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SeaGtGruff
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Re: Yamaha P-105 midi issue

Unread post by SeaGtGruff »

My PSR-E models work the same way-- incoming MIDI patch changes will change the sound used on the specified MIDI channel, but the MIDI channel is not connected to any of the keyboard parts (Main Voice, Dual Voice, and Split Voice-- called Right1, Right2, and Left on other models) or to any of the eight auto-accompaniment parts (Rhythm1, Rhythm2, Bass, Chord1, Chord2, Pad, Phrase1, and Phrase2). So you can change the voice that's being used to play the Note events which are received over MIDI, but not the voice that's being used to play the notes you're pressing on the keyboard.

However, there are two exceptions to that situation:

(1) The models I have include a feature called One Touch Setting (OTS) that is used to automatically set the Main Voice (Right1) to a given voice for one of the styles or songs. If you select the OTS voice (which is Voice Number 0 on my models) for the Main Voice, the patch changes for channel 1 will affect the sound for the Main Voice. Unfortunately, this method seems to be severely limited on the models I have, because only the voice messages (Bank Select and Program Change) are responded to, and selecting a voice this way will apparently cause all of the voice parameters (Channel Volume, Pan, Reverb Depth, Chorus Depth, etc.) to be set to the default values associated with that voice. The other drawback is that you apparently can't use this method to select the Dual Voice (Right2) or Split Voice (Left).

(2) The other exception is much more useful. Basically, you turn the keyboard's Local Control off so it doesn't make any sounds when you play it. Then you send the keyboard's MIDI data to a computer or other device and then send it back to the keyboard. This means the notes you play on the keyboard will be sent from the keyboard and will then be received by the keyboard as incoming MIDI events-- so in essence you're using the keyboard as a controller to play the keyboard as a sound module:

Keyboard's MIDI OUT or USB-MIDI --> Computer, Laptop, Tablet, etc.
Use a program to insert patch change messages
Computer etc. --> Keyboard's MIDI IN or USB-MIDI

This lets you do all sorts of things that might not otherwise be possible on your keyboard, such as splitting the keys into more than two zones (left and right), or layering more than two sounds together, since you have all 16 channels to work with.

Anyway, if I'm not mistaken you can send MIDI events to the app you're using (MobileSheets), because in the manual it talks about defining a series of incoming messages which can be used to tell MobileSheets that you want it to load a song, turn the page, etc. And I think I saw something about MIDI THRU in the manual as well. So it might be possible to use trick number (2) to achieve what you want:

1. Turn the P-105's Local Control off.
2. Send the P-105's MIDI data to MobileSheets.
3. Have MobileSheets send the P-105's MIDI data back to the P-105.
4. Have MobileSheets send patch changes, transpose messages, etc., to the P-105.

If for some reason MobileSheets can't handle steps 2 and 3, and if you can run a second app in the background while using MobileSheet, you might be able to find an app that can route MIDI data from one port to another, and set it up to route the P-105's MIDI back to itself.
Michael Rideout
Current keyboards: Yamaha YPT-400, PSR-E433, PSR-E443, PSR-EW400, MX49 BK
Current controllers: M-Audio Axiom 61-II
Previous keyboards: Farfisa Matador 611; Casio CTK-710

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Re: Yamaha P-105 midi issue

Unread post by SeaGtGruff »

I had another look at the manual for MobileSheets, and I don't think it's sophisticated enough to do what I was suggesting.

I didn't see any way to direct specific MIDI messages to specific MIDI ports, so I think you're stuck with just 16 channels over all, and you'll need to use a specific channel for a specific MIDI device.

And while MobileSheets obviously must be able to receive MIDI, given the fact that it can be programmed to take some action when it receives a given triggering event, I didn't see any reference to MIDI Thru, so there's no clear way to have MobileSheets echo the received MIDI data back to a keyboard.

That still leaves the possibility of using some other app in the background to bounce the P-105's MIDI back to itself.

Am I correct that your new tablet is a dual-boot machine, with both Windows and Android? I'm not familiar with the capabilities of Android as far as running two apps at the same time, one in the foreground (MobileSheets) and one in the background (for routing the P-105's MIDI back to itself). But if you can boot the tablet under Windows and use the Windows version of MobileSheets then you can run a program such as MIDI-OX in the background and have it route the P-105's MIDI back to itself.
Michael Rideout
Current keyboards: Yamaha YPT-400, PSR-E433, PSR-E443, PSR-EW400, MX49 BK
Current controllers: M-Audio Axiom 61-II
Previous keyboards: Farfisa Matador 611; Casio CTK-710

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Pete The Greek
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Re: Yamaha P-105 midi issue

Unread post by Pete The Greek »

Hi,

I'm very late to the party, but I only recently purchased my Yamaha P-121 (73 key version of the P-125). I wanted to report some success I have had which were the direct result of the tips that SeaGtGruff provided in this thread.

I have previously had good success controlling other keyboards (Nord Electro 3HP, Roland Juno DS-61) using the Android app "Midi Commander" running on a Samsung Galaxy Tab A (running Android version 8.1.0 currently). It functions as a usb host (i.e. like a computer); all you need is a cheap "OTG" adapter (mine was <$10).

I was able to change reverb and chorus settings via System Exclusive messages, e.g.
- turn off the Reverb (command = F0 43 10 4C 02 01 00 00 00 F7)
- set the Reverb type to "Recital Hall" (command = F0 43 10 4C 02 01 00 01 18 F7).
- adjust the Reverb depth (using CC #91)
- set the Chorus type to default (command = F0 43 10 4C 02 01 20 41 00 F7). A
- adjust the Chorus depth (using CC #93). Note this has no effect unless a chorus type has been specified (some patches have chorus built-in, but most seem not to)

This adds new sound capabilities vs. what you can achieve using the instrument's control panel - e.g. a chorused Rhodes, or a chorused Grand (honky tonk).

To change the instrument's voice via midi, it's necessary to do two things:

1. Turn off local control on the P-121. Two ways to do it:
(a) Using the P-121 itself: hold down the "Metronome" and "Rhythm" buttons, and then press key C5 on the keyboard (2 octaves above middle C). This is a simple toggle (do the same thing again to turn local control back on).
(b) Using Midi Commander, configure a button to send a value of 0 for Midi CC 122. To turn it back on, just send a value of 127 for Midi CC 122.

2. Turn on "midi thru" in Midi Commander. This is done via Global Settings.

With those two settings, you can now change the instrument's voice using simple midi commands. Please refer to the table on page 4 of the P-125/P-121 manual.

For example, the "Stage Piano" (Rhodes) is selected via MSB = 108, LSB = 0, Program Change = 5. Note that Yamaha uses a 1-128 system for program changes, while Midi Commander uses 0-127. So we have to subtract 1 from the program change in the manual. Thus in Midi Commander we configure a button as follows (remember to check the "enabled" box for each command that you want to send):
- Program Change = 4 (5 minus 1)
- Control Change #1: Type = 0 (MSB), Value = 108
- Control Change #2: Type = 32 (LSB), Value = 0

Voila, we can now select the Stage Piano - or any of the internal voices.

More on the Reverb and Chorus SysEx commands:

The P-125/P-121 Midi Reference (available from Yamaha) provides the necessary parameter values for reverb on page 15. Note:
- you don't have to enter the F0 or the F7 (those are hard-coded because they are required)
- enter these strings into Midi Commander without spaces
- turn off the checksum (click the button to the right of the F7)
- use the hex (not decimal) data values for the MSB and LSB. For example, for "recital hall" you will see MSB = 1 and LSB = 24 (decimal), and MSB = 1H and LSB = 18H (hex). 1H is entered as 01; 18H is entered as 18.

The P-125/P-121 Midi Reference is missing information about chorus, but this information is readily available if you google XG SysEx Chorus.

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Re: Yamaha P-105 midi issue

Unread post by SeaGtGruff »

Welcome, Pete The Greek! I'm glad the tips I posted two years ago were of some help to you. :)
Michael Rideout
Current keyboards: Yamaha YPT-400, PSR-E433, PSR-E443, PSR-EW400, MX49 BK
Current controllers: M-Audio Axiom 61-II
Previous keyboards: Farfisa Matador 611; Casio CTK-710

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Pete The Greek
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Re: Yamaha P-105 midi issue

Unread post by Pete The Greek »

Here are some other interesting observations on the P-121/P-125 and (presumably) its predecessors such as the P-115 and P-105, which do add to its capabilities (sometimes in useful ways):

1. For presets that already have an "effect 2" applied (e.g. E Piano Variation 2 which is a Wurlitzer with Tremolo), the effect can be changed (including turned off completely) through SysEx commands. I was able to change it to Phaser, Auto-Pan, Symphonic (sounded like Chorus), Rotary speaker, etc.). These SysEx commands are recognized without the need to turn off local control. I used Midi Commander, but I will test MobileSheetsPro when I get a chance (since it supports sending arbitrary SysEx command).

I found all of the necessary addresses and MSB/LSB values in the official Yamaha Midi Reference document... for the P-515. It is called the "DSP block".

This adds some nice additional variations, although you need some external gear to access them - but if you already have that gear with you it's cool.

I have not yet figured out how to add an "effect 2" (DSP) to a preset that doesn't already have one. For example I would love to be able to add the Auto-Pan to the main E Piano voice (Rhodes). I tried sending all of the SysEx commands that I see being sent when E Piano 2 is selected, but I am missing something. My suspicion is that maybe it requires an additional "simple" CC command - but those commands seem to be ignored.

2. I set up a Raspberry Pi as a USB Midi host. This allows me to add some additional functionality:

- With a USB-to-midi adapter (mine is an ESI MidiMate) I could connect the P-121 (via the Raspberry Pi) to a Yamaha CP88's standard Midi DIN in/out ports. Swapping which Midi plug was connected to which Midi port determined which keyboard was controlling which.

- I could connect a USB midi controller "directly" (via the Raspberry Pi) to the P-121 and control the P-121 with it (I used a Korg MicroKey).

There is a big limitation: the only voice that I ever heard out of the P-121 in these tests was a Grand Piano (to which I could apply pitch bend and/or vibrato). So for example if the P-121's voice was set to E Piano:
- playing the P-121's keyboard produced a Rhodes sound
- playing the Korg MicroKey produced a Grand Piano sound

That would be useful if you could arbitrarily select what voice the external midi keyboard produced (e.g. using a non-weighted keyboard to control the jazz organ voice).

So this is (to me) an odd implementation of Midi on this instrument, but there is more to learn.

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Re: Yamaha P-105 midi issue

Unread post by SeaGtGruff »

Pete The Greek wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 11:45 am
There is a big limitation: the only voice that I ever heard out of the P-121 in these tests was a Grand Piano (to which I could apply pitch bend and/or vibrato). So for example if the P-121's voice was set to E Piano:
- playing the P-121's keyboard produced a Rhodes sound
- playing the Korg MicroKey produced a Grand Piano sound

That would be useful if you could arbitrarily select what voice the external midi keyboard produced (e.g. using a non-weighted keyboard to control the jazz organ voice).

So this is (to me) an odd implementation of Midi on this instrument, but there is more to learn.
There are at least 3 solutions for getting a different voice than the Grand Piano:

(1) Use the USB host device (Raspberry Pi or whatever) or the MIDI keyboard controller to send the Bank Select MSB, Bank Select LSB, and Program Change values for the desired voice on the channel that you want to play it on.

(2) Enable MIDI loop-back on the USB host device so that any MIDI it receives from the Yamaha will be sent back to the Yamaha. When you select a voice on the Yamaha, the corresponding Bank Select and Program Change values will be sent to the USB host device, which will then send those values back to the Yamaha.

(3) If your Yamaha model has a song-recording feature, record a song that uses the voice you want to play with the controller; it can be a single note, as long as it uses the desired voice. When you select the song on the keyboard, it will select the desired voice for the channel that the controller will be received on. You shouldn't even need to press "Play" or "Start" to play back the song; just select it, and the keyboard should load the voice setup in anticipation of playing back the song.

The reason these "workarounds" are necessary is because the MIDI being received by the keyboard will be played using one or more of the "song parts," rather than the "keyboard parts." In this case, the term "parts" is roughly synonymous with "channels," but they aren't the same, because in theory a given part can be assigned to any MIDI IN or MIDI OUT channel as desired, so they're distinct from each other. The problem you've run into-- which I'm also familiar with on my Yamaha PSR-E models-- is that your keyboard doesn't provide you with the functions that let you assign a specific part to a specific MIDI IN or MIDI OUT channel, as can be done on more advanced models. This means you need to use MIDI messages to set the voice you want to use on the channel that the controller's Note events are being received on.

Another possible solution, which may or may not be available on your model, is to use the function that sets the "song voice" to whatever voice has been selected on the keyboard. If your keyboard doesn't have a function like that, then you'll need to use one of the other workarounds.

The advantage of method 1 is that you can set the voice on any of the 16 channels, so if the controller lets you switch between different channels then you can switch between 16 different voices.

The advantage of method 2 is that you can select the desired voice from the keyboard itself, although a possible disadvantage is that you might be limited to using the controller on channel 1-- unless you reroute the voice data coming from the keyboard to a different channel when you have the USB host send it back to the keyboard.

The advantage of method 3 is that you might be able to create a whole set of song files, each of which selects one or more voices on one or more channels. If you name the song files sequentially, you should be able to switch voices while playing by simply advancing to the next song.
Michael Rideout
Current keyboards: Yamaha YPT-400, PSR-E433, PSR-E443, PSR-EW400, MX49 BK
Current controllers: M-Audio Axiom 61-II
Previous keyboards: Farfisa Matador 611; Casio CTK-710

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