Using arranger functions through midi?

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Kyrieru
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Using arranger functions through midi?

Unread post by Kyrieru »

I'd like to be able to do a few things but I can't figure out how to do them, and the manual doesn't have much info:
How do I,

1. Play the keyboard's voices via input from a DAW's midi. (I only seem to be able to access 128 GM patches so many are not available).
*found out how to do this later. Have to use arbitrary combinations of patch and bank in your DAW. They also don't sound the same as the original patches, so it's honestly kind of disappointing.

2. Make the keyboard play accompaniment when the notes are triggered in the DAW. By default the accompaniment/styles does not seem to be triggered by external midi.

3. Can I record midi data from accompaniment into a DAW?

Thanks.


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SeaGtGruff
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Re: Using arranger functions through midi?

Unread post by SeaGtGruff »

1) To play the keyboard's voices, you need to send the Bank Select MSB and LSB values, followed by the Program Change value, of the voice you want to play. These are listed in the Data List. However, there are a few things to be aware of.

a) The Program Change values shown in the Data List are increased by 1, so you'll probably need to subtract 1 from them before sending them from your DAW, although this can depend on your DAW. To the computer, or inside the MIDI messages, the values are always from 0 to 127. But some hardware, software, and documents like to use values of 1 to 128, presumably because it's thought that human beings have trouble counting from 0. Yamaha lists the Bank Select MSBs and LSBs with values of 0 to 127, but lists the Program Change values as 1 to 128. Some DAWs use values of 0 to 127 for all three, some (such as Ableton Live) use values of 1 to 128 for all three, and some might even use a mixture or let you set a flag that chooses between either way. So you need to check which set of values (0 to 127, or 1 to 128) your DAW uses for each of these three (MSB, LSB, and Program), as well as which set of values is used in the documentation for your gear, and adjust the documented values as needed when entering them into your DAW. By the way, the same sort of situation exists with MIDI channel numbers, because the channels are always 0 to 15 inside the messages, yet it's almost universal to refer to them as 1 to 16.

b) Some of the keyboard's preset voices can't be selected via MIDI, usually because they are for a layered preset (Main plus Dual), but sometimes for another reason (such as it uses Harmony or an Arpeggio). These voices will have dashes in the Data List instead of their MSB, LSB, and Program values. If you want to play one of those voices from your DAW, you'll need to send the appropriate MSBs, LSBs, and Programs for both voices (Main and Dual), and send Note events on two channels-- channel 1 (that is, channel 0) for the Main Voice MSB, LSB, Program, and Notes, and channel 2 (that is, channel 1) for the Dual Voice MSB, LSB, Program, and Notes. You might also need to send additional MIDI messages for selecting the Reverb Type and Chorus Type, as well as the Reverb Depth and Chorus Depth, in addition to setting the Channel Volume, Pan, and any other settings that the preset voice might use. Unfortunately, the Data List doesn't provide any of that imformation for each of the preset voices. Fortunately, if you select the desired voice on the keyboard, edit the voice and effect parameters as desired, and then use the SendInit function to send the keyboard's current setup to your computer, you can use a DAW or MIDI monitor (such as MIDI-OX) to see what messages need to be sent back to the keyboard to set it up the same way-- except you can't turn the Dual Voice on or off via MIDI, or turn the other settings (such as Harmony or Arpeggio) on or off via MIDI, so you may still need to use the keyboard's panel controls for certain things.

c) Under normal conditions, the MIDI messages you send to the keyboard will not affect the Main Voice, Dual Voice, Split Voice, and other settings that you play on the keyboard itself, because the incoming MIDI controls the "song parts" and the voices you play on the keyboard are the "keyboard parts." (Similarly, the voices that the auto-accompaniment uses are the "style parts.") The incoming MIDI, as well as MIDI song files played back on the keyboard, affect only the song parts; they do not affect the keyboard parts or style parts. The only exception is that SysEx messages for setting the Reverb Type, Chorus Type, and Master Tuning will affect the keyboard, because those are keyboard-wide settings rather than part-specific. This means you normally can't send MIDI messages from your DAW to the keyboard such that the DAW will automatically change the voices you're playing with on the keyboard, since those messages will change the voices on the song channels rather than changing the Main Voice, Dual Voice, or Split Voice. But there's a possible workaround, namely to press the VOICE button to select a voice, set the Main Voice to number 0-- which is the OTS voice-- then press the SONG button to put the keyboard into Song mode. Then you should be able to send messages from your DAW as you're playing, and the voice you're playing on the keyboard should change to match whatever you sent from the DAW.

d) Another option that can allow for many cool tricks is to turn the keyboard's Local Control function to "off" so the keyboard won't make any sounds when you play it. Then send the keyboard's MIDI output to your DAW, and have the DAW send the MIDI right back to the keyboard. Then you can set up the DAW (depending on its capabilities) to do things like split the keyboard into as many as 16 different zones (1 zone per channel), with the 16 zones layered or split together however you wish, as well as transposing each zone as desired. This is done using a feature that might be called MIDI effects in your DAW. Basically, you program the DAW's MIDI effects settings to listen to the channel which the keyboard sends its Main Voice on (that is, channel 1 or 0, depending on your numbering preference), and have it split the data on the basis of the Note values and send it back to the keyboard on different channels depending on the Note values. Then you can have the DAW do other things as well, such as injecting Bank Select and Program Change messages into the MIDI it's sending back to the keyboard, or a filter sweep LFO, etc. In other words, you're playing the keyboard as though it were a MIDI keyboard controller, then having the DAW send the "sliced, diced, and spiced" MIDI back to the keyboard as though it were a MIDI sound module.

2) Unfortunately, there's no documented, known way to control the auto-accompaniment via MIDI.

3) Yes, you can record the keyboard's style output in your DAW. There should be three MIDI settings in the keyboard's Function menu, one for setting the "Keyboard Out" on or off, another for setting the "Style Out" on or off, and another for setting the "Song Out" on or off. These three settings are for the keyboard parts, style parts, and song parts, respectively. Note that enabling the "Song Out" will not allow you to output the preset songs, which are copy-protected. However, if you record a User Song in the keyboard's built-in song recorder then you can use the "Song Out" option to send the recorded MIDI messages to your DAW if you wish.


Michael Rideout
Current keyboards: Yamaha YPT-400, PSR-E433, PSR-E443, PSR-EW400, MX49 BK
Current controllers: M-Audio Axiom 61-II
Previous keyboards: Farfisa Matador 611; Casio CTK-710
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Kyrieru
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Re: Using arranger functions through midi?

Unread post by Kyrieru »

The problem with MSB, LSB, and Program values to choose patches is that the patch will not sound the same as it does on the keyboard.

For example with "Sweet flute", the beginning of the sound has a air blowing sound during the initial attack. If the patch is played through the DAW with midi, it will not play this part of the sound, even though it is not a dual patch. Settings of other sounds just seem different in various ways.

That said, is there any keyboard that does allow you to play the styles through external midi?


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SeaGtGruff
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Re: Using arranger functions through midi?

Unread post by SeaGtGruff »

The preset voices can sound different when played on the keyboard versus being played via MIDI, due to the various other settings (Volume, Pan, Octave, Attack, Release, Cutoff, Resonance, Reverb, and Chorus) that affect how a voice sounds.

In theory, you should be able to use the SendInit function to send the keyboard's setup to a DAW, record the received messages, save them as a MIDI clip, and then when you want to play that particular voice via MIDI you can load the MIDI clip and insert its contents (MIDI events) at the place where you want to switch to that voice-- but do it early enough to give the keyboard time to process the Bank Select, Program Change, Control Change, and other events before using any Note events to play the voice. One potential problem is that some DAWs don't have support for SysEx and will actively remove any SysEx messages from incoming or imported MIDI data, so that will prevent the DAW from being able to select the correct Reverb Type and Chorus Type. Also, some settings-- such as Harmony Type or Arpeggio Number, as well as the various on/off settings like Dual On, Split On, Harmony On, Arpeggio On-- can't be set via MIDI.

However, if you're having trouble with a flute voice as you've described, it's probably from selecting a different flute voice than you were trying to, either because of the confusing way Yamaha adds 1 to the Program Change values, or because you're getting the GM1 flute voice instead of the panel voice you're trying to select. If you think there's something else going on, such as some kind of pre-Note event-- then record the voice being played in a User Song and see if it plays back as expected. If it does, then use the File Control menu to save the User Song as a standard MIDI file (SMF), then play that back to see if it still sounds as you're expecting. If it does, then look at the SMF in a MIDI editor to see what events are in it.

As for models that let you control the auto-accompaniment via MIDI, you'll need to move up to a PSR-S model or above for that. It's definitely a sore point with PSR-E owners that we can't control the auto-accompaniment via MIDI. :(


Michael Rideout
Current keyboards: Yamaha YPT-400, PSR-E433, PSR-E443, PSR-EW400, MX49 BK
Current controllers: M-Audio Axiom 61-II
Previous keyboards: Farfisa Matador 611; Casio CTK-710
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Kyrieru
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Re: Using arranger functions through midi?

Unread post by Kyrieru »

Hmm I remember reading somewhere that the S series one hasn't been updated in a while.
I wasn't really blown away by the voices in the E463 (pretty much all the voices with "sweet" at the start seem a cut above the others)
Would you say that the voices in the S series one are better or about the same?


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SeaGtGruff
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Re: Using arranger functions through midi?

Unread post by SeaGtGruff »

The PSR-S and PSR-SX models should have more voices and better voices than the PSR-E and PSR-EW models, as well as more features and more advanced features. This should be especially true of the 900-series models, and less so of the 600-series. The 700-series models are very similar to the 900-series, but with fewer built-in voices and styles, and less expansion memory for installing additional voices and styles.


Michael Rideout
Current keyboards: Yamaha YPT-400, PSR-E433, PSR-E443, PSR-EW400, MX49 BK
Current controllers: M-Audio Axiom 61-II
Previous keyboards: Farfisa Matador 611; Casio CTK-710
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Kyrieru
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Re: Using arranger functions through midi?

Unread post by Kyrieru »

Seems like I would have to make a pretty big jump, price-wise.

My big problem with the PSR-E is that the instrument's aren't very musical. The instruments mostly sound very flat, yet there's no easy way to apply vibrato to them (in fact I dont know that you can, aside from through midi functions). In addition, all the controls are hidden in menus. It's not very fun going through a menu every time you want to adjust reverb.

By comparison, the old casio I have has ADSR buttons, a reverb slider, and most of the instruments have a very pleasant vibrato to them. It feels like you could pick any instrument and it's very playable.

I guess my dilemma is that I would probably find better instruments in a workstation, yet I want styles to play with. Are there workstations that just have a small number of styles? I would never really use things like track recorders, so I'm not worried about a lot of the features of arrangers.


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shelly0624
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Re: Using arranger functions through midi?

Unread post by shelly0624 »

Kyrieru wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:28 am By comparison, the old casio I have has ADSR buttons, a reverb slider, and most of the instruments have a very pleasant vibrato to them. It feels like you could pick any instrument and it's very playable.
Welcome to the forum Kyrieru! :P
I was just curious.. What model old Casio do you have?


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Kyrieru
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Re: Using arranger functions through midi?

Unread post by Kyrieru »

shelly0624 wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:22 am
Kyrieru wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:28 am By comparison, the old casio I have has ADSR buttons, a reverb slider, and most of the instruments have a very pleasant vibrato to them. It feels like you could pick any instrument and it's very playable.
Welcome to the forum Kyrieru! :P
I was just curious.. What model old Casio do you have?
It's a PMP-700, which I got for about $19 at a thrift store.
It's PCM, and most of the instruments are very synth-like, which makes it fun to play (Though not what most people would look for these days). It doesn't sound like FM synth of the time, nor does it sound like cheap GM midi banks.

I had a lot of fun with it, which what made me consider modern arranger keyboards.


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