MODX - Make or Break Questions

Covers the Yamaha MODX6, MODX7 and MODX8

Moderators: Derek, parametric, Saul

anotherscott
Member
Member
Posts: 95
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:36 pm
United States of America

Re: MODX - Make or Break Questions

Unread post by anotherscott » Tue Oct 16, 2018 8:38 pm

vertig0spin wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 8:06 pm
If I copy a performance from the present location and save to a user location (if that's even how you do it, or maybe it's create a new performance in the user location and copy the parts over to the new performance in the user location from the preset location..!?), and it's one of the sample AWM2 piano parts with all the samples, and then I modify all the elements of that copied part, does that use up much space on the 1GB limited user location? Basically, does it copy all the sampled velocity layers for the piano part to User location and chew up a lot of space?
No... When you save your own edited copy of one of he presets, it does not need to make another copy of the underlying wave data. Nor does the MODX let you edit the underlying wave data. When you modify elements, you are not altering the wave data, you are altering how the data is played.
vertig0spin wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 8:06 pm
If I create/copy a new performance does it automatically get created in the User location storage area, or is there room to save edits in the preset location storage?
Preset locations are for the factory-installed sounds and are not erasable or rewritable. You cannot save edits in the preset locations. If you could, by definition, they would be user locations, not preset locations. There are no "empty" preset slots, because if they could be filled by the user, they would be user slots. ;-)
vertig0spin wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 8:06 pm
One of the things that appeals to me about the Korg Kronos is the vast amount of SSD disk space! So much more room for the future...is this a design oversight by Yamaha on their new Synths?
Not an oversight, a different design decision. Every design has trade-offs. MODX boots much faster and sells for a lot less money than Kronos.
vertig0spin
Member
Member
Posts: 67
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2018 3:15 am
Canada

Re: MODX - Make or Break Questions

Unread post by vertig0spin » Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:27 pm

anotherscott wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 8:38 pm
vertig0spin wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 8:06 pm
One of the things that appeals to me about the Korg Kronos is the vast amount of SSD disk space! So much more room for the future...is this a design oversight by Yamaha on their new Synths?
Not an oversight, a different design decision. Every design has trade-offs. MODX boots much faster and sells for a lot less money than Kronos.
Thanks for the answers. I am used to programming Korg PolySix and DX7-II synths, and have never programmed ones that have built in samples, although from the little bit I've read of the MODX manual, the element programming of AWM2 parts seems fairly good.

I guess I was thinking of the Korg Kronos, compared to the Montage design in terms of storage...

Can the Montage &/or MODX receive a User storage upgrade without too much trouble, or will that be a new future release of the products?
anotherscott
Member
Member
Posts: 95
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:36 pm
United States of America

Re: MODX - Make or Break Questions

Unread post by anotherscott » Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:55 pm

vertig0spin wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:27 pm
Can the Montage &/or MODX receive a User storage upgrade without too much trouble
No, not upgradeable.
User avatar
Timesnothing
Posts: 1
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2018 11:58 pm
Great Britain

Re: MODX - Make or Break Questions

Unread post by Timesnothing » Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:25 am

I'm currently using a Moxf8.
When using a Modx, is it possible to switch on and off the arp on / off button using a footswitch?
Also, when setting up a rhythm pattern, can you stipulate a note range when triggering the pattern using the keyboard?
User avatar
Saul
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 10448
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2004 1:00 am
Contact:
Ireland

Re: MODX - Make or Break Questions

Unread post by Saul » Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:54 am

vertig0spin wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:27 pm

Can the Montage &/or MODX receive a User storage upgrade without too much trouble, or will that be a new future release of the products?
I guess that may be something Yamaha are keeping back for a future model much the same as aftertouch. If they put everything into their keyboards in one go, us lot would not have any reason to keep "upgrading" ;)
Saul
Site Admin
Subscribe To Our YouTube Channel!
Review Yamahamusicians.com on Trustpilot
Sign up to the Newsletter
Follow us on Twitter @YamahaMusicians
Follow Us On Facebook
Dowina Acoustic Guitars: Dowina Cabernet DC
Dowina Chardonnay GAC DS - Dowina Rustica GAC - Dowina Marus - Dowina Puella

Seagull S6 Original/Vintage VE2000GG Gordon Giltrap/Ashbury AG-160/Roland FA-07/Pianoteq 6 Pro/Amplitube 3.0/Apple iMac 27"/Logic Pro X/Cubase AI 9/Absynth 5/Ableton Live 9/KRK Rokit RP5 G3 Monitors
vertig0spin
Member
Member
Posts: 67
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2018 3:15 am
Canada

Re: MODX - Make or Break Questions

Unread post by vertig0spin » Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:40 am

Regarding the MODX line, with the MODX8's GHS keybed (which I find to be inconsistent with velocity/volume across the entire keyboard), are the MODX6 & 7 the same or are they even across the keybed, whereby the pianos especially, don't have less velocity/volume on the lower/mid notes?
User avatar
Fleer
Member
Member
Posts: 35
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:12 pm
United States of America

Re: MODX - Make or Break Questions

Unread post by Fleer » Mon Oct 22, 2018 4:08 am

Bought the MODX8. Played all Sunday afternoon. Very consistent across the board. Perfect for piano as well as strings.
anotherscott
Member
Member
Posts: 95
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:36 pm
United States of America

Re: MODX - Make or Break Questions

Unread post by anotherscott » Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:49 pm

vertig0spin wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:40 am
Regarding the MODX line, with the MODX8's GHS keybed (which I find to be inconsistent with velocity/volume across the entire keyboard), are the MODX6 & 7 the same or are they even across the keybed, whereby the pianos especially, don't have less velocity/volume on the lower/mid notes?
MODX6 and 7 feel even across the keybed. Basically, they are equally bad for playing piano across all their keys. ;-) It is not as good as MODX8 for good control of dynamics. Compared to a MODX8 (or a real piano) you will probably find that the 6/7 velocity feels "jumpy," i.e. it's too easy to get from soft to loud, and harder to control the subtleties of the levels in between.
Saul wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:54 am
vertig0spin wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:27 pm

Can the Montage &/or MODX receive a User storage upgrade without too much trouble, or will that be a new future release of the products?
I guess that may be something Yamaha are keeping back for a future model much the same as aftertouch. If they put everything into their keyboards in one go, us lot would not have any reason to keep "upgrading" ;)
It would be nice if they started putting aftertouch in lower priced boards, but they (and others) seem to be set on using that as something that distinguishes the low end boards from the high end ones. It's a shame since it's such a useful live performance feature (when you often don't have your other hand free for expression either), and the lighter weight boards are the more appealing gig boards.

As for upgradeable memory, that's something I'd only expect to see on high end boards if anywhere. MOXF did have a flash expansion slot, but I think only because it came with none to begin with. Adding a slot to a board that already has memory is an extra expense for something many would never use, which makes it something more likely for a high end board than a low end one. The other way storage/memory can be expanded is to replace what's there with a higher capacity version, but that also adds expense (socketing to make things removable) plus there needs to be a mechanism by which to get everything off the old storage and into the new. (I'm not sure it's definitely true, but I read that the user space on the Yamaha is actually unused space on the same memory device that holds all the factory sounds, so you wouldn't be able to replace one without the other.) Korg Kronos is kind of an interesting exception to removability/upgradability... it's not so much that Korg designed that feature in, but rather they built Kronos around a stock computer motherboard that already had those attributes. There are pros and cons to their approach. They were able to take advantage of building on the capabilities of a computer version of Linux (so besides natural upgradability, they were able to support streaming of large samples, for example), but it also gives them a slow boot, fan noise, and I think less ability to scale all the tech down to lower priced derivative models.
vertig0spin
Member
Member
Posts: 67
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2018 3:15 am
Canada

Re: MODX - Make or Break Questions

Unread post by vertig0spin » Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:13 am

anotherscott wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:49 pm
vertig0spin wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:40 am
Regarding the MODX line, with the MODX8's GHS keybed (which I find to be inconsistent with velocity/volume across the entire keyboard), are the MODX6 & 7 the same or are they even across the keybed, whereby the pianos especially, don't have less velocity/volume on the lower/mid notes?
MODX6 and 7 feel even across the keybed. Basically, they are equally bad for playing piano across all their keys. ;-) It is not as good as MODX8 for good control of dynamics. Compared to a MODX8 (or a real piano) you will probably find that the 6/7 velocity feels "jumpy," i.e. it's too easy to get from soft to loud, and harder to control the subtleties of the levels in between.
The more I listen to/watch/study these two youtube videos very closely, the more I am convinced that all the MODX keybeds are causing issues with the triggering of the proper velocity sample layers, whereas the Montage(at least the Montage8 for sure) keybed is even/balanced & properly weighted for how the velocity layers were meant to be triggered. The MODX8 GHS keybed is weighted more like a piano, so it gradually attacks the velocity layers harder as you get to the higher notes, but far too soft on the lower/mid notes to sound like a piano should sound. The velocity layers were custom sampled for an even/balanced keybed, not a GHX keybed.
After having tried the MODX8 for nearly an hour and a half, this first video is very close to what I experienced.

I think this video shows perfectly how low the MODX8 is on the mid-lower notes in both volume and velocity. At first, when he hits the lowest notes of the Montage8 and then the MODX8, you might think "oh, he didn't have the MODX volume up high enough" and that it's not a fair comparison, but it's not just the volume that is different, but the velocity layer on the Montage is at least one level up from the MODX. What really proves this is if you listen to when he compares the high notes between the Montage and MODX, they sound nearly identical in both volume and velocity, until he gets to the last C5 note, and that is where the MODX just starts to play down in volume and velocity, which tells me that it was a fair comparison in terms of the volumes set on both synths. Except for the highest notes above C5, in the video the MODX8 sounds like (and played for me in real life when I tried it), like the soft dampening pedal of the piano was 'stuck on' and you have to hit harder just to get the volume & attack, which makes it feel too unnatural. Listen closely as he keeps playing. Any notes up high are fine on the MODX, but the rest are not attacking enough, and I am certain it is the GHS keybed causing this:




When you say "MODX6 and 7 feel even across the keybed. Basically, they are equally bad for playing piano across all their keys", I think it's logical that they would be even across the keybed and because they are on the cheaper side, they are likely not triggering the velocity sample layers hard enough and are probably close to the lower end of the MODX8 GHS keybed. This video seems to back it up because unlike the first video, in this one, all the notes on the MODX keybed are equally not hitting the velocity layers & volume, as the Montage is:




The good news is that it would be easier on the MODX6 & 7 to program the piano sounds(or the global setting for the entire keyboard), setting the velocity curve from normal to soft, which would likely make it closer to the Montage for playing piano, whereby you could hit the notes a bit harder and dig into the higher velocity layers without having to almost break the keys.
I would love to try a MODX6 or 7 to verify this, but there are none near where I live. I would also like to try the Montage8, but again, none are nearby.
User avatar
Fleer
Member
Member
Posts: 35
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:12 pm
United States of America

Re: MODX - Make or Break Questions

Unread post by Fleer » Tue Oct 23, 2018 4:12 am

Or, as AnotherScott described the MODX6 and MODX7: “Basically, they are equally bad for playing piano across all their keys. ;-)
User avatar
parametric
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 3209
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 1:00 am
Contact:
Great Britain

Re: MODX - Make or Break Questions

Unread post by parametric » Tue Oct 23, 2018 4:40 am

I'm not sure how detailed the Global settings for Keyboard Velocity are in the MODX?

My Fusion has the normal arrangement:

Fusion Velocity Curve.jpg

But also has this in addition: Where you can fine-tune it . . . .

Fusion Velocity Scaling.jpg
Fusion Velocity Scaling.jpg (86.56 KiB) Viewed 346 times

parametric
Alesis Fusion 8SSD AND 6SSD - BOTH are 384Mb/120Gb SSD/Akai ADVANCE61/Yamaha MOXF6/1024Mb Flash Ram/Yamaha SY85/8.5mb vol/1024k non-vol/DX21/Roland MT32/Bachmann double overstrung Baby Grand Piano/Win10 Pro/Ubuntu MATE 15.0.4/iBook G4/Mac OS 10.4.6/ProTools 7.4/MBox2/M-Audio MicroTrack 24/96

NI Komplete11 Ultimate

Sector101 2x SYEMB06 / 4 x EXM-E3 128MB DRAM Module

BRAND NEW DSDD (720k) FLOPPY DISKS FOR SALE - http://www.yamahaforums.co.uk/forum/vie ... =22&t=9217

Watch out now! take care, BEWARE of the greedy leaders! They'll take you where you should not go - (George Harrison)

IT'S TRUE - "MONEY TALKS" - TO ME, IT MOSTLY SAYS "GOODBYE" ;-)
http://www.chrisnmiller.co.uk/Chris
User avatar
Stevie18
Product Specialist
Product Specialist
Posts: 111
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2018 4:49 pm
Germany

Re: MODX - Make or Break Questions

Unread post by Stevie18 » Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:38 am

@vertigospin, I have the MODX8 and for me the keyboard is absolutely great for playing the piano. But I guess it is personal taste. Nothing to argue about. But I also have the Montage 6 and it is not really great for playing the piano. It is a great keyboard but it is synth action. Same for the MODX6. So I won't expect the MODX6 to be any better. At least for me it is much more difficult to control the dynamics. Most key presses come out way too loud even with the velocity curve set to hard. So my recommendation: Don't bother with the MODX6! My recommendation is to order one of the synths with a 30 day return policy and try it. Or does this not exist where you live?

Note that I don't believe that anyone samples for a certain keybed as you write above. They sample the sound as it comes and then maybe adapt to the keybed using the settings in the sample editor and the synth section.

Having said that, note that the MODX and Montage have a lot of control over the velocity settings. You can set the global velocity curve as described for the Fusion. There is no global velocity scaling for the keyboard as in the Fusion. But you have that for each part and for each element in each part. For each part you have a velocity offset and a velocity depth. For each element you have a curve, level/velocity, Offset, Level/Key and a means to adapt the volume over the keyboard with 4 break keys and 4 levels. So with some work you will be able to adapt it to whatever scheme you need. That needs to be programmed per performance, but maybe the savings against the Montage are worth it for you...
anotherscott
Member
Member
Posts: 95
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:36 pm
United States of America

Re: MODX - Make or Break Questions

Unread post by anotherscott » Tue Oct 23, 2018 2:01 pm

vertig0spin wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:13 am
The more I listen to/watch/study these two youtube videos very closely, the more I am convinced that all the MODX keybeds are causing issues with the triggering of the proper velocity sample layers, whereas the Montage(at least the Montage8 for sure) keybed is even/balanced & properly weighted for how the velocity layers were meant to be triggered. The MODX8 GHS keybed is weighted more like a piano, so it gradually attacks the velocity layers harder as you get to the higher notes, but far too soft on the lower/mid notes to sound like a piano should sound.
That is possible. Though this is not consistent with your initial evaluation that you "found both the volume & sound velocity was lower in the mid section compared to the lower or higher end keys" -- if what you're saying now is correct, than the lower keys should be the worst ones.
vertig0spin wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:13 am
The velocity layers were custom sampled for an even/balanced keybed
No, that's not how it works, the sampling process itself does not vary based on what keys will be triggering them. However, the later processing/programming of those samples can be based on response with a particular action. So, yes, it is possible that the samples were programmed for best response on the Montage BH kys. And AFAIK, the Montage sound set was brought to the MODX with no changes, so yes, it is possible that the MODX GHS is triggering samples whose velocity response has been optimized for a Montage BH.
vertig0spin wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:13 am
When you say "MODX6 and 7 feel even across the keybed. Basically, they are equally bad for playing piano across all their keys", I think it's logical that they would be even across the keybed
It's not a matter of "logical," it's just what they are. Yamaha does make keyboards with similar keys which are graded (i.e. the NP32, NP-V60), but that's not what they used on the MODX. Non-hammer actions are more typically not graded. In fact, Yamaha is the only company I'm aware of that offers graded non-hammer actions on any of their keyboards. Hammer actions are more often graded, most non-hammer actions are not, but as you can see, there are exceptions to both cases. The idea of a graded action is to make it more similar to a piano feel (at least in that one respect), but that's not always what someone wants. Yamaha does not have an obvious piano-related pattern in how they employ this feature, though. The CP1 was one of their very best piano-specific boards, and its action was not graded; the MODX8/MOXF8/MOX8 use a graded action despite being more multi-purpose boards... I would guess because, for these boards, they wanted to use the lowest cost (and/or lightest) hammer action board already in production, and that happened to be GHS, which has been used on numerous more piano-specific models.
vertig0spin wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:13 am
because they are on the cheaper side, they are likely not triggering the velocity sample layers hard enough and are probably close to the lower end of the MODX8 GHS keybed.
They may or may not be triggering the velocity samples the way you want, but it would not be because they are on the cheaper side, there's no cause-and-effect there, it is simply an entirely different design. And although there is no real direct comparison between the behavior of a hammer action and a non-hammer action, if you must compare them to the feel of GHS, they would be closest to the higher end where the MODX feels lightest. But the 6/7 feels even lighter.
vertig0spin wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:13 am
The good news is that it would be easier on the MODX6 & 7 to program the piano sounds(or the global setting for the entire keyboard), setting the velocity curve from normal to soft, which would likely make it closer to the Montage for playing piano, whereby you could hit the notes a bit harder and dig into the higher velocity layers without having to almost break the keys.
True that it can be easy to trigger the highest velocities on a 6/7. Not true that, in general, it will feel anything like a Montage for playing piano. For piano expressivity, the 6/7 will suck compared to either the MODX8 or the Montage 8. You just don't have the same kind of control over dynamics.

If you want balanced (non-graded) response for piano playing on these instruments, you should either get a Montage 8, or if you get a MODX6/7, also get some other balanced hammer action board, and use that to trigger the MODX over MIDI. Possibilities might be Studiologic SL73 or SL88 Studio and I think Kurzweil SP6 (which would also have some nice sounds of its own... generally stronger than MODX for organ, VA synth, maybe EP).
anotherscott
Member
Member
Posts: 95
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:36 pm
United States of America

Re: MODX - Make or Break Questions

Unread post by anotherscott » Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:44 pm

Stevie18 wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:38 am
@vertigospin, I have the MODX8 and for me the keyboard is absolutely great for playing the piano. But I guess it is personal taste. Nothing to argue about. But I also have the Montage 6 and it is not really great for playing the piano. It is a great keyboard but it is synth action. Same for the MODX6. So I won't expect the MODX6 to be any better. At least for me it is much more difficult to control the dynamics. Most key presses come out way too loud even with the velocity curve set to hard. So my recommendation: Don't bother with the MODX6!
That's consistent with my own experiences/expectations, though as I posted, you could also go with a MODX6/7 and an external weighted action, which would give you the benefit of having the organ/synth acton when you want it and the piano action when you want it.
Stevie18 wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:38 am
note that the MODX and Montage have a lot of control over the velocity settings...For each part you have a velocity offset and a velocity depth. For each element you have a curve, level/velocity, Offset, Level/Key and a means to adapt the volume over the keyboard with 4 break keys and 4 levels. So with some work you will be able to adapt it to whatever scheme you need. That needs to be programmed per performance, but maybe the savings against the Montage are worth it for you...
It does seem like that level of editing flexibility should allow you to essentially independently adjust the velocity response for various regions of the GHS. I wonder how many different weightings are used in the GHS from top to bottom?

Programming "per performance" is no big deal... just do it once, save it as its own Performance, and then you can insert that version of the piano into any other performance that you want, just as easily as using the unaltered version.
vertig0spin
Member
Member
Posts: 67
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2018 3:15 am
Canada

Re: MODX - Make or Break Questions

Unread post by vertig0spin » Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:14 pm

parametric wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 4:40 am
My Fusion has the normal arrangement:

But also has this in addition: Where you can fine-tune it . . . .

Fusion Velocity Scaling.jpg

parametric
What? That could change everything in my decision. If the velocity scaling can be modified that way on the MODX8 at the part &/or element level, then problem solved!
Post Reply

Return to “Yamaha MODX Forum”