MODX - Make or Break Questions

Covers the Yamaha MODX6, MODX7 and MODX8

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Re: MODX - Make or Break Questions

Unread post by vertig0spin » Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:20 pm

Stevie18 wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:38 am
Note that I don't believe that anyone samples for a certain keybed as you write above. They sample the sound as it comes and then maybe adapt to the keybed using the settings in the sample editor and the synth section.

Having said that, note that the MODX and Montage have a lot of control over the velocity settings. You can set the global velocity curve as described for the Fusion. There is no global velocity scaling for the keyboard as in the Fusion. But you have that for each part and for each element in each part. For each part you have a velocity offset and a velocity depth. For each element you have a curve, level/velocity, Offset, Level/Key and a means to adapt the volume over the keyboard with 4 break keys and 4 levels. So with some work you will be able to adapt it to whatever scheme you need. That needs to be programmed per performance, but maybe the savings against the Montage are worth it for you...
I guess I worded the custom samples for a particular keybed thing wrong. What I was trying to say is that they sampled it evenly in terms of volume and velocity on each note across the actual acoustic piano, and a keybed that is GHS would not likely work properly as a keybed that is designed with higher quality & to be balanced and even across the entire keyboard.

The whole velocity scaling thing has me rethinking the MODX8 now.
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Re: MODX - Make or Break Questions

Unread post by anotherscott » Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:34 pm

vertig0spin wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:20 pm
I guess I worded the custom samples for a particular keybed thing wrong. What I was trying to say is that they sampled it evenly in terms of volume and velocity on each note across the actual acoustic piano, and a keybed that is GHS would not likely work properly as a keybed that is designed with higher quality & to be balanced and even across the entire keyboard.
Sampling is done the same way regardless. Since the real piano has keys that are heavier at the bottom and lighter at the top, the samples would probably normally map most naturally to a graded keyboard. Whether Yamaha mapped them specifically to "compensate" for the lack of grading on the Montage, I don't know.

Also, don't conflate "high quality" with "balanced." There are higher and lesser quality actions of both types. But in the specific case of these Yamahas, yes, most people consider the BH action of the Montage to be of better quality than the GHS action of the MODX8... but not specifically because of the difference between graded and balanced. In fact, many people think the graded NW-GH action of the CP4 is the best of all the Yamaha portable actions.
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Re: MODX - Make or Break Questions

Unread post by parametric » Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:42 pm

I would agree about the CP4.

It is after all, only really interested in being a Piano . . . . (which most would agree in does rather well :wink: )

Perhaps this is the point.

The Montage and MODX are covering a larger base, and pleasing everybody is a difficult one to call :roll:

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Re: MODX - Make or Break Questions

Unread post by vertig0spin » Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:29 pm

anotherscott wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 2:01 pm
That is possible. Though this is not consistent with your initial evaluation that you "found both the volume & sound velocity was lower in the mid section compared to the lower or higher end keys" -- if what you're saying now is correct, than the lower keys should be the worst ones.
I really need to go back and try the MODX8 again, because my recollection might not be as accurate as I thought, aside from the lower/mid keys being too low in volume and velocity and the higher ones being perfect, which is what that video shows perfectly.
anotherscott wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 2:01 pm
No, that's not how it works, the sampling process itself does not vary based on what keys will be triggering them. , so yes, it is possible that the MODX GHS is triggering samples whose velocity response has been optimized for a Montage BH.
I don't think I worded the "The velocity layers were custom sampled for an even/balanced keybed" thing the way I meant to say it. Basically I meant to say that they sample a piano with an even/balance process. Because the Montage has a balanced keybed, the samples are triggering evenly across the keyboard, and maybe they tweaked the programming as you suggested, but defintely the GHS keybed is not right for the way they did the sampling & programming process for the Montage.

anotherscott wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 2:01 pm
It's not a matter of "logical," it's just what they are.
Logical as in, it makes sense.
anotherscott wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 2:01 pm
They may or may not be triggering the velocity samples the way you want, but it would not be because they are on the cheaper side, there's no cause-and-effect there, it is simply an entirely different design. And although there is no real direct comparison between the behavior of a hammer action and a non-hammer action, if you must compare them to the feel of GHS, they would be closest to the higher end where the MODX feels lightest. But the 6/7 feels even lighter.
I do think for the MODX6 & 7, from what I've been reading others say and watching that second video, their 'cheaper' keybeds don't attack the velocity layers as well as the Montage6 & 7. Maybe partly because the pianos/velocity layers were 1st programmed for the Montage, which has a better quality keybed, has better touch response and definitely better attack to the velocity layers as can be seen in the second video.
They way the MODX6 & 7 keybeds attack (or lack thereof) the velocity layers is closer to the way the lower end of the MODX8 keybed does...not very well.

The one thing that may be coming out of all this discussion is that the MODX8 may be perfectly programmable to compensate for the GHS keybed, if the velocity scaling is how people are saying it is, whereby sections of the keybed (for parts &/or elements) can have different velocity curve settings...
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Re: MODX - Make or Break Questions

Unread post by parametric » Tue Oct 23, 2018 11:12 pm

vertig0spin wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:14 pm
parametric wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 4:40 am
My Fusion has the normal arrangement:

But also has this in addition: Where you can fine-tune it . . . .

Fusion Velocity Scaling.jpg

parametric
What? That could change everything in my decision. If the velocity scaling can be modified that way on the MODX8 at the part &/or element level, then problem solved!
I've always considered the Fusion was ahead of it's time - given it was legacied in 2005 . . .

The 8HD still has a keybed to die for - for Piano Players . . .(just my opinion)

NOT the issue here however . . .

I'm sure that including a fine tuning feature in the MODX would only be a question of a further "tab" on a menu page . . .

Time to make the suggestion on Ideascale? (Y)

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Re: MODX - Make or Break Questions

Unread post by anotherscott » Wed Oct 24, 2018 4:50 am

vertig0spin wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:29 pm
Basically I meant to say that they sample a piano with an even/balance process. Because the Montage has a balanced keybed, the samples are triggering evenly across the keyboard
I still don't get what you're saying. When pianos are sampled, the keys must be physically struck. The resistance of the keys (while sampling) are heavier at the bottom, lighter at the top (i.e. equivalent to graded, not balanced).
vertig0spin wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:29 pm
They way the MODX6 & 7 keybeds attack (or lack thereof) the velocity layers is closer to the way the lower end of the MODX8 keybed does...not very well.
Again the MODX6/7 does not trigger the various velocity layers at all the same way as the GHS does (nor the same as the Montage 8 BH does). Your control over the continuum between soft and loud is far less than on a hammer actions. And I don't know whether or how much better it could get with programming... these kinds of actions are generally inherently more difficult to control. There's too little resistance.
vertig0spin wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:29 pm
The one thing that may be coming out of all this discussion is that the MODX8 may be perfectly programmable to compensate for the GHS keybed, if the velocity scaling is how people are saying it is, whereby sections of the keybed (for parts &/or elements) can have different velocity curve settings...
That would be an interesting project!
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Re: MODX - Make or Break Questions

Unread post by vertig0spin » Wed Oct 24, 2018 3:16 pm

anotherscott wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 4:50 am
I still don't get what you're saying. When pianos are sampled, the keys must be physically struck. The resistance of the keys (while sampling) are heavier at the bottom, lighter at the top (i.e. equivalent to graded, not balanced).
When they sample the keys; yes they are hitting a real acoutic piano with a somewhat graded keyboard, whereby the resistance of the keys are heavier at the bottom, lighter at the top; however the mechanism they are using to sample each key, I would assume, is the same device with the same exact striking velocities. So for example when they record the heaviest/hardest hit sample, the device they use that hits each of the keys, hits each of them with the exact striking force, thus part of what I am referring to as balanced/even. The mechanism for sampling is done with a balanced/even device across the piano(which is of course itself more graded by nature), physically striking each key with the same velocity, evenly.
Then once these samples make it into the memory banks of the Montage synths, the keybeds are all balanced and even to suit these samples that have the natural graduated key touch already built into each sample velocity level's sound from when they were recorded.

anotherscott wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 4:50 am
Again the MODX6/7 does not trigger the various velocity layers at all the same way as the GHS does (nor the same as the Montage 8 BH does). Your control over the continuum between soft and loud is far less than on a hammer actions. And I don't know whether or how much better it could get with programming... these kinds of actions are generally inherently more difficult to control. There's too little resistance.
I'm not saying that the MODX6/7 keybeds trigger the velocity layers the exact same way as the MODX8 GHS. Just that the 6/7 tend to hit the velocity layers similar/closer to the lower/mid key range of the 8 in terms of how they trigger the 'wrong' velocity layers...basically not triggering the proper higher layers for how hard the keys are hit...triggering softer touch velocity layers instead...maybe not the exact same softer ones, but not the correct ones like how the Montage6/7/8 keybeds do.

anotherscott wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 4:50 am
That would be an interesting project!
I would have loved to work on reprogramming the MODX8 parts/elemnts for the pianos; however the more I read the manual, it does not appear to have velocity scaling editing... Kinda had my hopes up for a minute.
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Re: MODX - Make or Break Questions

Unread post by anotherscott » Wed Oct 24, 2018 4:35 pm

vertig0spin wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 3:16 pm
The mechanism for sampling is done with a balanced/even device across the piano(which is of course itself more graded by nature), physically striking each key with the same velocity, evenly.
Then once these samples make it into the memory banks of the Montage synths, the keybeds are all balanced and even to suit these samples that have the natural graduated key touch already built into each sample velocity level's sound from when they were recorded.
Ah, now I see what you're saying. Interesting point.
vertig0spin wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 3:16 pm
I'm not saying that the MODX6/7 keybeds trigger the velocity layers the exact same way as the MODX8 GHS. Just that the 6/7 tend to hit the velocity layers similar/closer to the lower/mid key range of the 8 in terms of how they trigger the 'wrong' velocity layers...basically not triggering the proper higher layers for how hard the keys are hit...triggering softer touch velocity layers instead...maybe not the exact same softer ones, but not the correct ones like how the Montage6/7/8 keybeds do.
I would not assume that the Montage 6/7 respond anything like the way the Montage 8 does.

I also find that video of comparing the Montage 6 to the MODX6 to be unconvincing. The first piano sound is different because it's missing a layer on the Montage, until he adjusts so that the superknob is in the same place. Other piano sounds did not seem different to me, though I did not listen to the entire video. Can you refer me to any point in that video that really demonstrates the difference to you?
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Re: MODX - Make or Break Questions

Unread post by vertig0spin » Wed Oct 24, 2018 5:27 pm

anotherscott wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 4:35 pm
I also find that video of comparing the Montage 6 to the MODX6 to be unconvincing. The first piano sound is different because it's missing a layer on the Montage, until he adjusts so that the superknob is in the same place. Other piano sounds did not seem different to me, though I did not listen to the entire video. Can you refer me to any point in that video that really demonstrates the difference to you?
Here are the main places that I found after he adjusted the superknob:
3:24
3:54
4:55
6:55 (listen to the airiness that the Montage has)
8:09
9:14
9:44
10:25

He already adjusted the volume of the MODX to be higher to make it the same level as the Montage(& did a good job at that IMHO), but it doesn't appear to be hitting that next sample level consistently. 6:55 is a great example, where the volumes are the same, but the Montage is hitting the next level sample velocity.
The other examples mostly show that the Montage gets to the extra layer with a more 'bell-like' tone you get at higher velocities.
(Quick edit: I meant to add, on a positive note, the difference between the Montage6/7 vs MODX6/7 appears to be only 1 velocity level at most, whereas the MODX8 in the lower/mid notes are likely 2 velocity layers less...on the up side for the MODX8, if there is one, it appears to be hitting the exact same velocity layers as the Montage8 on the highest note...so MODX8 is better than the MODX6/7 on the very highest notes(only), but I would personally take the MODX6/7 over the MODX8 because the global velocity curve can be adjusted if preferred and the MODX6/7 are at least more even/balanced)

I received word back directly from Yamaha just a few minutes ago regarding my question on Velocity Scaling edit ability for a part/element. The answer is 'no' the Montage/MODX synths can't edit velocity to that level of detail. "The Velocity curve is applied to the whole keyboard only".
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Re: MODX - Make or Break Questions

Unread post by Fleer » Thu Oct 25, 2018 1:37 am

Just look at (and listen to) this artist playing the MODX8 piano (from 4:00):

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Re: MODX - Make or Break Questions

Unread post by anotherscott » Thu Oct 25, 2018 2:02 am

vertig0spin wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 5:27 pm
Here are the main places that I found
I'm not sure I can hear any timbral difference, i.e. nothing I couldn't attribute to volume alone.
vertig0spin wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 5:27 pm
He already adjusted the volume of the MODX to be higher to make it the same level as the Montage(& did a good job at that IMHO)
Two issues. One, it's only an approximation of same volume (he even talks about how it didn't do it scientifically... which could be done pretty well with a dB meter, even a free on you can run on your phone). Second is, even if they are set to be truly equivalent volume, we can't be sure he is hitting a given strike exactly equally hard on both boards. Related to that, he's playing the boards from different playing angles. Regardless, I'm not hearing definitive proof of any tonal differences here, personally.
Fleer wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 1:37 am
Just look at (and listen to) this artist playing the MODX8 piano (from 4:00): https://www.yamahasynth.com/modx-catego ... erformance
Yes, it's that kind of dynamic nuance in performance that you won't get out of a MODX6/7. Regardless of how bright the max velocity is (which is still plenty on a MODX6/7, there's no problem getting MIDI velocity 127 out of it), being able to finesse all the lesser velocities is just as--or arguably even more--important.
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Re: MODX - Make or Break Questions

Unread post by Stevie18 » Thu Oct 25, 2018 2:21 pm

vertig0spin wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 5:27 pm
I received word back directly from Yamaha just a few minutes ago regarding my question on Velocity Scaling edit ability for a part/element. The answer is 'no' the Montage/MODX synths can't edit velocity to that level of detail. "The Velocity curve is applied to the whole keyboard only".
While I by now guess that the MODX is probably just not the right thing for you (not the MODX8 and certainly not the MODX6/7) I would still like to clarify that. I am not sure who at Yamaha you asked or what the exact the question was. Maybe you were not asking the right question...

The answer to the question "Can you edit a performance such that the velocity response in different parts of the keyboard can be adapted to personal taste?" is certainly yes. Maybe it is still not enough for your taste but you have a lot of possibilities.

To clarify what you can do you could do the following experiment (if you had a MODX or Montage):
  • Take performance "CFX Stage" as a starting point. It has only one part for the whole piano which means you have 7 parts free.
  • If you for example say that the velocity response in the middle of the keyboard is okay but not in the lower and higher parts, copy part 1 to parts 2, and 3.
  • Split the keyboard using the parts' "Note Limit" setting so that the 3 parts are in different keyboard regions, e.g. part 1 lower part, part 2 middle part, part 3 higher part (you could split into up to 8 regions if you need, remember that you have 8 parts available).
  • For each of the regions you can now use the velocity offset and velocity depth to adapt that part to your needs. You should not make too drastic changes there, otherwise you get weird effects when playing melodies which span regions. But some extent of editing is okay.
  • If that's not enough, note that each part of the mentioned performance has 5 elements which handle different velocity ranges (the others are used for the high notes and the key off sound).
  • Each of the elements has a velocity curve of its own in the element's amplitude screen. Does that help enough?
  • In addition to that you have per element the level/key setting which can be used to have higher volume towards the lower or higher end of the key range.
  • In addition to that you have per element the level/velocity setting which you can use to fine tune the response to the velocity.
  • In addition to that you have per element a velocity offset which can be used to set a minimum velocity. Together with the above you can have very fine grained control over the response to velocity for each element.
  • In addition to that there is the scale screen with 4 keys and 4 levels which allows you per element to adapt the level further for 5 regions per element .
  • Of course you can edit for the different elements the exact point where the velocity range begins and ends to fine tune more.


Note that the elements 6,7, and 8 of each part except part 8 would not be needed because they cover the higher area and the key off sound. You need that only once. So you could use those 3 elements for more fine grained control in all but the uppermost part of the keyboard.

What you are doing is basically to program an individual velocity curve for up to 8 regions of the keyboard. Each of those velocity response curves is a graph of up to 8 linear segments which you can adapt to your needs in a very wide range.

So can you adapt the velocity response to your needs? I certainly think so. Is it a lot of work and fine tuning? Absolutely. But as someone wrote earlier you would have to do it once per piano sound and then store it. And then you can use that piano sound again and again. If you do not need all 8 parts for the piano you can then use that piano in performances with other parts as layers and splits...

Of course having a more fine-tuned global velocity control would be nice as well. But maybe still not enough for you. Who knows... But it would be worth a feature request, maybe (I won't make that because I am very fine with the key response as is).
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Re: MODX - Make or Break Questions

Unread post by Stevie18 » Thu Oct 25, 2018 2:34 pm

vertig0spin wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 3:16 pm
[When they sample the keys; yes they are hitting a real acoutic piano with a somewhat graded keyboard, whereby the resistance of the keys are heavier at the bottom, lighter at the top; however the mechanism they are using to sample each key, I would assume, is the same device with the same exact striking velocities. So for example when they record the heaviest/hardest hit sample, the device they use that hits each of the keys, hits each of them with the exact striking force, thus part of what I am referring to as balanced/even. The mechanism for sampling is done with a balanced/even device across the piano(which is of course itself more graded by nature), physically striking each key with the same velocity, evenly.
I am not sure how this is done, I would certainly like to see what mechanism they use for that. However, the assumption that each key is hit with the same velocity is not necessarily true. First, that depends on the exact nature of the mechanism. Note that the velocity which is important is that at the end when the hammer hits the string. Having a constant velocity at that point in the face of different counter forces is a non-trivial thing to achieve I would assume. Second, since they have to program that mechanism to have different velocities for the different velocity layers, they could certainly program a different velocity curve per key... So for the lower layers the mechanism could apply higher force or not.
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Re: MODX - Make or Break Questions

Unread post by vertig0spin » Thu Oct 25, 2018 3:11 pm

Fleer wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 1:37 am
Just look at (and listen to) this artist playing the MODX8 piano (from 4:00): yamahasynth.com/modx-category/spotlight-on-domi-modx8-livestream-performance
I saw that one a week or so ago, but didn't listen as closely as I did today, nor did I finish watching the whole thing then.
After she finished playing, she said something near the end when interviewed & asked about the GHS keyboard, to the effect that she had to adjust how she played for the GHS keyboard, which I am going to assume is that she had to starting hitting the keys in the lower/mid area a bit harder to get the sound out of them that she expects to come out. That's just my guess based on my experience trying out the pianos on the MODX8 several weeks back, where I had to really adjust how I played the pianos in that range, and I did not enjoy it at all. She seems to be playing a more jazzy based song, which didn't appear to need the lower/mid area keys to hit the higher velocity layers for that 'bell-like' tone, as would be needed in some pop/rock piano songs, or at least for the stuff I play.
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Re: MODX - Make or Break Questions

Unread post by vertig0spin » Thu Oct 25, 2018 3:32 pm

anotherscott wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 2:02 am
I'm not sure I can hear any timbral difference, i.e. nothing I couldn't attribute to volume alone.
I was mainly listening to the tonal/timbral differences in those parts, and not as much the volume. They sounded less soft, more full/clearer, and a more 'bell-like' tone on the Montage than the MODX. Now, I am talking at most 1 velocity layer that the Montage keybed was hitting, and not 100% of the time. So not as much difference as I hear in the other video between the Montage8 & MODX8 on the notes from C5 down. The MODX6/7 would not be a deal breaker for me compared to the Montage6/7; however I do want some kind of piano action in the keybed and not a synth keybed action ... So the 6/7 are a no for me. When I triggered instrument plugins in Protools in the past via MIDI using my DX7-II synth, I was just so in Awe of the awesome unlooped sampled pianos I was playing (especially NI Kontact's Bechstein & the Bosendorfer), that I didn't notice the keybed action as much at the time. However recently I had an opportunity to play them again with my synth and I definitely didn't enjoy playing the pianos as much on the synth keybed.
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