Only able to hear 8 parts in a Performance.

Covers the Yamaha MODX6, MODX7 and MODX8

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bigfootjim
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Only able to hear 8 parts in a Performance.

Unread post by bigfootjim » Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:03 pm

One more (well...for now.....)question. I am creating a performance with 9 parts but it will only play 8 of them unless I click on the #9 slot. Then I just hear that part and not the other 8. Doesn't the MODX allow you to have 16 parts per performance? I have these parts spread out over the Keyboard so I am only playing a few voices at one time. Thanks!
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Re: Only able to hear 8 parts in a Performance.

Unread post by Derek » Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:11 pm

Hi. Haven’t checked this myself, but I think this is similar to the stupid performance layer limitation that was in the EX5, where you could only play two layers from the keyboard. I got round it by plugging MIDI OUT to MIDI IN, and I think you can do the same on the MODX. Worth a try anyway....
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Re: Only able to hear 8 parts in a Performance.

Unread post by bigfootjim » Wed Apr 17, 2019 11:10 pm

Thanks Derek! I'll give it a shot.
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Re: Only able to hear 8 parts in a Performance.

Unread post by anotherscott » Thu Apr 18, 2019 1:08 pm

Yes, MODX only allows you to assign 8 sounds to the keyboard at a time. The other 8 Parts are there to be played from other sources (like a DAW/sequencer, or another keyboard). The idea behind Derek's trick is for the MODX to consider its own keyboard to be an external keyboard, though I still don't know how you'd set that up to trigger more than 8 Parts.
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Re: Only able to hear 8 parts in a Performance.

Unread post by SeaGtGruff » Thu Apr 18, 2019 1:56 pm

If it’s just MIDI OUT to MIDI IN, you’re limited to whatever the MODX can do as far as the MIDI channels.

But if you were to send the MIDI OUT to a MIDI processor before sending it back to the MIDI IN, you could copy or move MIDI events from channels 1-8 to channels 9-16 (for example), such that 9-16 could be layered with 1-8.
Michael Rideout
Current keyboards: Yamaha YPT-400, PSR-E433, PSR-E443, PSR-EW400, MX49 BK
Current controllers: M-Audio Axiom 61-II
Previous keyboards: Farfisa Matador 611; Casio CTK-710
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Re: Only able to hear 8 parts in a Performance.

Unread post by anotherscott » Thu Apr 18, 2019 4:29 pm

SeaGtGruff wrote:
Thu Apr 18, 2019 1:56 pm
If it’s just MIDI OUT to MIDI IN, you’re limited to whatever the MODX can do as far as the MIDI channels.

But if you were to send the MIDI OUT to a MIDI processor before sending it back to the MIDI IN, you could copy or move MIDI events from channels 1-8 to channels 9-16 (for example), such that 9-16 could be layered with 1-8.
Ah, yes, that makes sense. The MODX can't transmit on more than 8 channels, so yes, there would have to be some other device involved, like a MIDI Solutions event Processor or an iOS device running an app that can reroute MIDI (i.e. Keystage, MIDI Breakout Box, Camelot Pro, MIDIflow, iMidiPatchbay)
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Re: Only able to hear 8 parts in a Performance.

Unread post by vertig0spin » Thu Apr 18, 2019 7:57 pm

SeaGtGruff wrote:
Thu Apr 18, 2019 1:56 pm
If it’s just MIDI OUT to MIDI IN, you’re limited to whatever the MODX can do as far as the MIDI channels.

But if you were to send the MIDI OUT to a MIDI processor before sending it back to the MIDI IN, you could copy or move MIDI events from channels 1-8 to channels 9-16 (for example), such that 9-16 could be layered with 1-8.
I've never dealt much with MIDI before, except to trigger VST instruments in Pro Tools, but that was basically connecting the MIDI Out to the computer (basic connection).

I don't really understand about the various MIDI channels, but I am curious about the MIDI OUT to MIDI IN trick ... If I connect MIDI OUT to MIDI IN, what will happen? (Note I have a Montage 8)
What will the Montage do with the MIDI channels?
What would happen to PARTs that have KBD CTRL disabled?
Does it send out all 16 channels for each PART out and then back in to the same PART corresponding PART? Or does it only send out 1-8 and trigger those same PARTs coming in? Or trigger parts 9-16? Are there any settings that can be configured on the MODX or Montage that specific which of the Parts 9-16 can listen for the Incoming MIDI, whereby you could have only PARTs 12-16 listening or triggered (& PARTs 9-11 not triggered)?

Just wondering if there is a way to use that trick without a MIDI processor, adjust MIDI functionality of PARTs via the Synth settings, and be able to play some specific PARTs in the 9-16 slots!?
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Re: Only able to hear 8 parts in a Performance.

Unread post by SeaGtGruff » Fri Apr 19, 2019 10:06 pm

I’m unfamiliar with the MODX’s and Montage’s MIDI capabilities and limitations, so I’ll answer from a general perspective.

If you connect a keyboard’s or synth’s MIDI OUT port to its MIDI IN port, its outgoing MIDI data will be routed back to itself and it will respond as though the MIDI data were received from an external source.

If you're not using any MIDI hardware or software to modify the MIDI data after it’s sent out and before it’s received back, the incoming data will be the same as the outgoing data. This might not sound like it would be very useful, but it can indeed be useful, although the possible uses and their benefits will vary depending on the capabilities and limitations of the keyboard or synth.

For example, the PSR-E323 is an older entry-level keyboard model that has MIDI IN and MIDI OUT ports. It has no function settings for assigning any of its parts to specific MIDI OUT channels, or for assigning any of the MIDI IN channels to specific parts; the parts are transmitted over fixed MIDI channels which can't be changed, and the received MIDI channels are sent to the song parts and normally have no effect on the keyboard parts.

Furthermore, the PSR-E323 has no registration memories that let you save your setups for later recall. It also has no ability to save and load custom voice files, by which I mean preset voices which you've modified by changing settings like Modulation, EG Attack Time, EG Release Time, LP Filter Cutoff, and LP Filter Resonance. In fact, its voice-editing functions are extremely limited-- you can change the volumes, octave offsets, and chorus depths for the three keyboard parts (Main Voice, Dual Voice, and Split Voice), but that's it. (The reverb depth control isn't even part-specific!)

On the other hand, the PSR-E323 will recognize and respond to the CC events for Volume, Pan, Modulation, EG Attack Time, EG Release Time, LP Filter Cutoff, LP Filter Resonance, Reverb Depth, and Chorus Depth. This means you can create MIDI "song" files that select and set up the voices for song channels 1, 2, and 3, but which don't contain any Note events. When you select a song on the keyboard, it reads all the initial system and channel settings from the song and sets up the song channels accordingly. If you connect MIDI OUT to MIDI IN, then turn off Local Control, the notes you play with the Main Voice, Dual Voice, and Split Voice will be sent out and received back on channels 1, 2, and 3. Thus, you could create a series of "song" files-- actually just voice setting files, but with the .MID extension-- and select them one after the other as you play, which would set up the keyboard's first three song parts as desired and let you play them using the Note events generated by playing with the Main Voice, Dual Voice, and Split Voice. This would let you overcome the PSR-E323's lack of registration memories, "user voice" feature, and voice-editing functions.

Of course, if you were to leave Local Control turned on, then you could layer the PSR-E323's Main Voice with song channel 1, layer the Dual Voice with song channel 2, and layer the Split Voice with song channel 3.

In contrast, the PSR-S975 is a newer studio/stage-level keyboard model that's light years beyond the PSR-E323. It has settings that let you assign specific parts to specific MIDI OUT channels-- of which there are 32, since it has two sets of MIDI IN/OUT ports, A and B. It has settings that let you assign specific MIDI IN channels to specific parts. And it has settings that let you decide which types of MIDI events will be sent and received on the various MIDI IN/OUT channels.

Furthermore, it has eight registration memories per registration bank, with an effectively unlimited number of registration banks, so you can save an unlimited number of setups for later recall. Plus, it has a comprehensive set of voice-editing functions, with the ability to save your custom voice settings to user voice files.

You could certainly connect MIDI OUT to MIDI IN on the PSR-S975 to achieve the same benefits described for the PSR-E323-- but quite frankly, it isn't necessary, since the PSR-S975 can already do those things as it is. On the other hand, you could set the PSR-S975's R1 part to transmit on MIDI A OUT channel 1, set MIDI A IN channel 1 to be received by song channel 1, and thereby layer the R1 part with the song channel 1 part. But there are a lot more possibilities than that due to the PSR-S975's inherent capabilities.

The PSR-S975 has 32 parts of multitimbrality-- 16 song parts, 8 style parts, 3 keyboard parts (R1, R2, and L), and 5 "extra" parts. And as stated, there are two sets of MIDI IN/OUT ports. This means you could connect MIDI A OUT to MIDI A IN, then connect MIDI B OUT and MIDI B IN to external devices. You could route the R1 part to MIDI A OUT CH1, route the R2 part to MIDI A OUT CH2, and route the L part to MIDI A OUT CH3. Then you could route MIDI A IN CH1 to Extra Part 1, route MIDI A IN CH2 to Extra Part 2, and route MIDI A IN CH3 to Extra Part 3. And you could also route the 16 MIDI B IN channels to the 16 song parts. That would let you play with a style (auto accompaniment), create layered sounds for the R1, R2, and L parts, and at the same time use a keyboard controller or sequencer to play the 16 song parts.

Now, the preceding examples assumed that no external hardware or software were being used to modify the MIDI events between the MIDI OUT and MIDI IN ports. If you do use additional hardware or software, it opens up even more possibilities. For example, you could create all sorts of complex splits and layers by sending a single MIDI OUT channel's Note events to multiple MIDI IN channels, with each MIDI IN channel having filters set up to allow only those Note events that fall within a certain range, and possibly with certain MIDI IN channels having their Note events offset by positive or negative transposition values. In this way you could create splits and layers far beyond what your keyboard's panel controls allow, or play a chord by pressing a single key, and so on.

Note that some synths may have this sort of "MIDI OUT to MIDI IN" routing built into their operating systems. For example, I know that the MX synths can be set up with 16-part performances, and the available settings for each of the 16 parts let you create complex splits ands layers as suggested above, without having to use a MIDI cable to connect the MIDI OUT port to the MIDI IN port.

As I said, I'm unfamiliar with the MIDI capabilities and limitations of the MODX and Montage, so I don't know the extent of what's possible without the use of any external hardware or software to process the MIDI events. You'll want to study their manuals to see what all of the available options are as far as the MIDI OUT settings and MIDI IN settings. Then you'll want to put on your thinking cap and try to imagine what's possible. But for maximum potential you'll want to consider using additional hardware or software to open up even more creative possibilities.
Michael Rideout
Current keyboards: Yamaha YPT-400, PSR-E433, PSR-E443, PSR-EW400, MX49 BK
Current controllers: M-Audio Axiom 61-II
Previous keyboards: Farfisa Matador 611; Casio CTK-710
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Re: Only able to hear 8 parts in a Performance.

Unread post by anotherscott » Sat Apr 20, 2019 5:26 am

vertig0spin wrote:
Thu Apr 18, 2019 7:57 pm
Just wondering if there is a way to use that trick without a MIDI processor, adjust MIDI functionality of PARTs via the Synth settings, and be able to play some specific PARTs in the 9-16 slots!?
Answering all your questions is too complicated, especially in a non-interactive format. But that particular question can basically be answered by saying that you can probably do everything you want if you insert the MIDI processor (hardware or software) between the MIDI Out and In... and can't do ANY of it without such a device. The MODX is capable of transmitting on a max of 8 Parts, period. The MIDI Out to MIDI In connection does not change that. That's why you need the device, essentially to take ONE of the 8 transmission Parts and turn it into 2 or more.
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