Chaos Germany!

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Re: Chaos Germany!

Unread post by Saul » Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:56 pm

The problem with trying to make the wealthy pay for UBI is that they will simply take their money and bugger off somewhere else. There will always be a safe haven for the rich. Why do you think so many billionaires have homes in Monaco or the Cayman Islands for example?

UBI is a great concept but it's hard to implement because of where we are at the moment. I think you need a rock solid economy to start from. You also need social acceptance of the idea. People who have worked hard all their lives and have not lived on benefits are not going to be overjoyed at the prospect of money being given to people who are not working...they aren't happy with the current system and I don't blame them.

I personally like the idea of UBI but I am also realistic enough to accept that, right now, it's a bit of a utopian dream.

On the subject of people foraging for their own food. Well that may be possible in a country the size of say, Australia where there is a huge landmass and relatively small population but it is not sustainable in the country the size of the UK with a population of over 65 million. Plus of course large tracts of land here are in private ownership.

Also the last thing I want to see here is people going around with hunting rifles and bows!
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Re: Chaos Germany!

Unread post by purcell » Sun Mar 11, 2018 11:19 pm

Unconditional Basic Income - Utopia or Nightmare? (From: work - time - life)
According to a study by "Splendid Research", 58 percent of Germans surveyed expressed their support for an unconditional basic income in Germany.
The respondents think that a monthly amount of more than 1100 euros is appropriate.
The financing requirement would therefore amount to about one trillion for about 82.5 million people in Germany - almost a third of the national income.
This utopia would undoubtedly lead to a complete deconstruction of the welfare state. Nothing worth fighting for.

1100 € is only 140 € above the poverty level 960 €!
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Re: Chaos Germany!

Unread post by tux » Sun Mar 11, 2018 11:37 pm

@Derek:
Frankly I'm not sure why you are so insistent with capitalism vs. socialism, even more so when talking about land ownership which in the UK is still dominated by feudalism to this day.

The way I understood the land value tax when I read about it (this was specific to the UK) it was meant to target the various 'blue blooded' families who still dominate land ownership to this day in the UK and draw large unearned and undeserved income from it. They did not take ownership of this land in a capitalistic way (i.e. by buying it up) so taxing it or taking it away from them (which wasn't even suggested) would certainly not be anti-capitalistic.
Owner-occupied residential plots up to a certain size would be exempt so there is no need for you to worry about having to pay another tax (unless you are part of the wealthy landed gentry with a big mansion and huge garden ;) ).

But anyway I personally doubt that this land value tax will ever happen in the UK as the 'blue blooded' families are still way to influential in politics to allow this to happen (don't they still dominate the house of lords with their unelected peers?).
Last edited by tux on Sun Mar 11, 2018 11:47 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Chaos Germany!

Unread post by tux » Sun Mar 11, 2018 11:41 pm

Saul wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:56 pm
The problem with trying to make the wealthy pay for UBI is that they will simply take their money and bugger off somewhere else.
Well that's the clever point about a land value tax. You can't take land with you. 8)
And if the current owners sell it all up then the new owners will have to pay the tax.
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Re: Chaos Germany!

Unread post by tux » Sun Mar 11, 2018 11:49 pm

purcell wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 11:19 pm
The financing requirement would therefore amount to about one trillion for about 82.5 million people in Germany - almost a third of the national income.
You clearly didn't read my previous post where I explained why these simplistic calculations are a complete fallacy. The real amount necessary is orders of magnitude lower.
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Re: Chaos Germany!

Unread post by purcell » Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:47 am

That´s what they! ....(From: work - time - life) say!
Anyway... an UBI of only 1100 Euro in germany... is almost poverty!
You can live with this, on a very low level. Yes! But...an real UBI is 1300/1400 minimum! And you are not even rich with this!
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Re: Chaos Germany!

Unread post by tux » Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:58 am

purcell wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:47 am
That´s what they! ....(From: work - time - life) say!
Well, they are telling you lies, re-read my post where I explained it and you will understand.
Anyway... an UBI of only 1100 Euro in germany... is almost poverty!
You can live with this, on a very low level.
Nonsense. We (married couple) spend together less than €1200 a month and that includes even the running costs of 2 cars.
(of course this does not include luxuries such as holiday travel or other one-off expenses, such as new furniture, or the actual replacement costs of the cars)

If you are spending more than that, then either you live in a high-rent area (and nobody said that UBI will allow you to live in a high rent area, if UBI is not enough then either get a job, or move to a cheaper area, or share your flat with somebody else) or you are spending too much on frivolities.

UBI in Germany shouldn't be more than €600 or at most €800 per person, otherwise it would be like Derek says, that there isn't much incentive to work anymore.
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Re: Chaos Germany!

Unread post by purcell » Mon Mar 12, 2018 4:21 pm

Facts germany:
As poor is classified as one who has less than 917 euros per month as a single available. Another number shows the problem: more and more retirees are dependent on support from the state.

"UBI in Germany shouldn't be more than €600 or at most €800 per person,..." Tux

That is even under the social welfare!... Curios UBI !

If 917€ or maybe 960 € is POOR! With 1200 € you are + 240 € above POOR !... clear! if you do not pay rent ...that´s a lot!
But if you pay a rent 500-600 € - and all the other things...you are happy to live with 400/max. 500 € a month! :mrgreen: ...and two cars!
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Re: Chaos Germany!

Unread post by Saul » Mon Mar 12, 2018 4:50 pm

I don't know what rents are like in Germany but here in the UK they are getting beyond ridiculous!

Our rent is €986 per month for a small one bed apartment...hence my limitations on space for music gear :( We do live in a nice part of the country though but generally speaking our rent is relatively low in comparison to many others. A typical rent is around €1000 per month.

Add onto the rent we have pay a monthly council tax of €180 so that brings us to €1166 before we even start thinking about all the other bills plus food of course.

With a UBI of €800 each...there's just two of us. That would cover all the essential outgoings and we could probably survive on just that but we would want to work too. So in our case the whole UBI thing would work well. And for others in similar circumstances it would allow them to live a fairly comfortable life as long as they lived within their means...so no credit anywhere, just live on what you have. That's assuming they didn't do any paid work of course.

There are approximately 32 million people of working age in the UK who are employed either full time or part time. So to give every one of those a UBI of €800 I "think" would cost around €26 billion? Maths was never my strong point so please feel free to correct that ;)

The social security bill for the UK is around £114 billion per year and climbing. UBI would replace the current system. So on the face of it we would actually save money...wouldn't we?
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Re: Chaos Germany!

Unread post by purcell » Mon Mar 12, 2018 5:07 pm

Apartment rent germany! From (small apartment) 300 € per month - industrial company (Thyssen etc.) exactly in front! :mrgreen:
To 1500 - 2500 € per month in Hamburg,München,Berlin,Frankfurt...there are apartment seekers - hundreds!
queue up - already at night.

Have a look:

https://www.wohnungsboerse.net/mietspiegel-mietpreise

Frankfurt 15,11 € / qm .... 100 qm = 1511 € + extras in addtion! :lol:
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Re: Chaos Germany!

Unread post by Saul » Mon Mar 12, 2018 5:52 pm

Interesting site Purcell :) So could probably live in the South of Germany, Baden Baden for example for the same amount as we pay here :)
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Re: Chaos Germany!

Unread post by tux » Mon Mar 12, 2018 6:06 pm

@purcell, what you seem to forget is that UBI is per person, so if UBI is €800 then a couple would get €1600 which is already more than enough. That's why I said earlier that UBI will promote social cohesion because it will be a strong incentive for singles to either get coupled up or get a flatmate or move into a flatshare. This also solves housing shortages. Living on your own as a single is not something the state should support, if you want to do that then earn some extra income.
I would consider this one of the many positive aspects of UBI.

UBI should certainly not be so high that a single can live by himself and without working, that would be a completely wrong incentive.
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Re: Chaos Germany!

Unread post by tux » Mon Mar 12, 2018 6:26 pm

Saul wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 5:52 pm
Interesting site Purcell :) So could probably live in the South of Germany, Baden Baden for example for the same amount as we pay here :)
Germany is certainly cheaper with regards to living costs compared to the UK (especially compared to the south-east), it's not just rent, food and other daily necessities are cheaper too, not by a lot, but enough to make a difference.
Of course there are high-rent areas in Germany too, but generally it's better value for money especially if you consider that room sizes are larger than in the UK and flats are generally more spacious and have higher quality fittings (bathrooms are usually fully tiled, mixer taps have been standard since decades, radiators have thermostats on each radiator, windows have been double glazed since the 80's at least).
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Re: Chaos Germany!

Unread post by parametric » Mon Mar 12, 2018 6:33 pm

I remember, some years back now, here in the UK, a bunch of Actuarial Scientists/Analysts/ Economists -

whatever they are called "This Week", declared that the British Economy was too complicated to make a workable

Computer "Model" of, so that intelligent decisions could be made on "Economic Policy".

The Response from the "Luminaries" that control our destiny, was to DOUBLE the number of occasions in the

Fiscal Year when the economy could be "Fiddled with". :roll: :roll: :roll:

So we now have a Spring Budget and an Autumn Budget.

Given that economic change has a huge hysteresis built in - things are being tweaked BEFORE anyone has had the

chance to see what the effects are . . . .or IF DECISIONS are GOOD - in plain-speak.

Suicidal or WHAT?

So we continue to lurch from one crisis to the next - WHO can be surprised?

(there will ALWAYS be a "Next")

parametric
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Re: Chaos Germany!

Unread post by Saul » Mon Mar 12, 2018 6:41 pm

Things are improving in the UK although where we live is probably an exception rather than the rule.

This place is just three years old and totally energy efficient. Great insulation, double glazing is pretty standard in the UK these days. In the towns and cities you can of course take advantage of the amount of competition for gas, electricity and broadband providers so prices are low. For example the place we lived in before this was out in the countryside. Our heating bill was over €225 per month! Our electric bill was €135 pm. Our "broadband" for want of a better word was €67 pm and we only had a max speed of 2.8mb! There was no street lighting and in the winter we were often stuck because the road gritters never came to our area so we could not drive until the ice and and snow cleared.

We don't have any of those problems now. Our heating AND electric combined is approx €90pm and the broadband with 75mb download and 17mb up is €33pm and of course the roads are cleared when it snows or it is icy out there. So not a bad deal but with the downturn in the economy everything else has increased in price...plus our rent is now double what it was before :( but then with the cheaper utility bills it sort of mitigated somewhat.

We do though have some of the highest rents in Europe and the smallest homes to go with it :( Quite why we build such small houses and apartments I don't know.
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