Yamaha Idea Scale CS80 Questionnaire

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Yamaha Idea Scale CS80 Questionnaire

Unread post by Derek » Wed Apr 24, 2019 9:00 am

Hi,

This popped into my inbox this morning. Not sure what will come of it, but the fact that Yamaha are seeking feedback on it....

Link to Survey
Hello from Yamaha,

Thanks for your Ideas and conversations. Apologies we haven't joined in. We would like to understand your analog synthesizer requests a bit more clearly. Please note we move in a very deliberate manner; this is just an initial focusing of the Ideas offered so far and not a commitment to build a product.

Our question is regarding basic conceptual direction if we were to make a new CS-80.

The thread is located on IdeaScasle here:
https://yamahasynth.ideascale.com/a/dtd ... 1192-45978

Additionally, the next tie you log in you will be asked to fill out a small number of profile questions. This will only take a few minutes and your answers will be confidential. However, this information will help us to better understand and ultimately serve our community and customers better.
What I added along with my vote
Interesting mix of comments, so plenty for you to consider!

Budget would be a large issue, as if it is only affordable to the few then it could be a big flop.

Whilst it might be heresy for the purists, I would say go the modelling route (your modelling has always been excellent - the AN1x is still a favourite of mine), writing the code with portability in mind so it will run on a platform like the Montage (I live in hope!), a VST/AU and then a recreation of the original as a standalone keyboard. That way you would cover all bases.

For a hardware version I would say a modern take on this classic, much lighter (should be possible!) with MIDI, effects, etc. TBH, I have no more space for hardware, so this would give me a big problem if you ever did this! ;)
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Re: Yamaha Idea Scale CS80 Questionnaire

Unread post by Saul » Wed Apr 24, 2019 9:45 am

That's interesting! I can't see Yamaha recreating a hardware version of the CS80 as the cost would be prohibitive, at least if they went with a full size keyboard version. Perhaps they are thinking more along the lines of what Roland did with the D-05. Or perhaps as you mentioned it may be a modelled VST...but there are already software versions of the CS80 so perhaps not.

Will be very interesting to see where this goes...if indeed it goes anywhere.
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Re: Yamaha Idea Scale CS80 Questionnaire

Unread post by puremusic » Wed Apr 24, 2019 12:37 pm

Fascinating. I was just thinking the other day, if the folks here could design their ideal synthesizer, drawing from all those of the past, what would it be like?
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Re: Yamaha Idea Scale CS80 Questionnaire

Unread post by Saul » Wed Apr 24, 2019 12:44 pm

puremusic wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 12:37 pm
Fascinating. I was just thinking the other day, if the folks here could design their ideal synthesizer, drawing from all those of the past, what would it be like?
I know it would be damned expensive! :lol:
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Re: Yamaha Idea Scale CS80 Questionnaire

Unread post by puremusic » Wed Apr 24, 2019 12:53 pm

Lol, yeah that!
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Re: Yamaha Idea Scale CS80 Questionnaire

Unread post by Derek » Wed Apr 24, 2019 3:14 pm

Saul wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 9:45 am
That's interesting! I can't see Yamaha recreating a hardware version of the CS80 as the cost would be prohibitive, at least if they went with a full size keyboard version. Perhaps they are thinking more along the lines of what Roland did with the D-05. Or perhaps as you mentioned it may be a modelled VST...but there are already software versions of the CS80 so perhaps not.

Will be very interesting to see where this goes...if indeed it goes anywhere.
That's where I was going with my comment to keep it virtual because they could then target multiple platforms, including those boutique options.

There are a few CS80 clones, with Arturia's CS80V in VST form and Deckard's Dream is the one mentioned here in hardware form a few years back and now on the market. I would still love to see what Yamaha do on this!
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Re: Yamaha Idea Scale CS80 Questionnaire

Unread post by puremusic » Wed Apr 24, 2019 5:17 pm

Yes if I could afford it I'd likely get Deckard's Dream. At least I have Arturia's. There's a new little synth out on Kickstarter that has a buzz to it that reminds me of the CS80, called Buzzy I was even interested in. Might have to not get anything for few months. Sudden lot of surprise repair bills this month, car, washing machine, lawnmower, everything's breaking at once. Hopefully I can repair some of it myself but still there's parts fees.

I think Yamaha couldn't go wrong either way, making a significantly upgraded CS80, or a reissue like the original with a few small modern conveniences like MIDI.
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Re: Yamaha Idea Scale CS80 Questionnaire

Unread post by Derek » Wed Apr 24, 2019 7:19 pm

Given what Behringer are doing in reproducing old classics for a fraction of the cost, I wouldn't be surprised if they try something like this at some point.

TBH, Deckard's Dream always underwhelmed me, probably because they did not do any decent demos. Need to check it again to see if they are any better.
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Re: Yamaha Idea Scale CS80 Questionnaire

Unread post by puremusic » Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:57 pm

There's also this Boomstar SE80 thing, that's monophonic, and not cheap.

I'm just going to buy the Kiloheart's Ladder Filter as part of 'The Works' compilation whenever it goes on sale, and hope that works near enough like the brilliance filter.
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Re: Yamaha Idea Scale CS80 Questionnaire

Unread post by stryker99 » Thu Apr 25, 2019 11:38 pm

I posted this over in that thread.

This really needs to happen. You can't underestimate how googaa people went over Deckard's Dream.

This is the 21st Century, so there must be SOME evolution, but I will be explicit where. First off, it has to be identifiably a CS-80.
  • Form factor, similar. Dual voice architecture with those two ranks of synth controls, and I'd like a sloped panel face.
  • That ubiquitous CS sound, particularly the dual resonant filters.
  • Full length ribbon.
  • Poly-pressure keyboard.
  • Full set of Ring Mod controls.
  • Full set of LFO (Sub-Osc) controls.
  • A well endowed set of performance controls to alter synth parameters and response to playing.
  • A good effects/control section besides the keyboard.
Now, where I'd diverge.
  • The layout of the CS-80 in the performance area is kind of a mess. It was designed by their combo organ people involved, and this was the early days of synth design so I'll cut them some slack on the klunky design choices. But I'd love to see performance controls re-thought so they make more sense and are logical. For one thing, the Resonance of the synth was only maxed when you pushed the "voice" slider up all the way, and pulled down the Resonance paddle in the performance section. It should be fully resonant in the "voice" section, and I'd leave it to Yammy to decide how much a performance control would add. I like what Yamaha did with the CS70M as far as layout, but it really needed a second row of synth controls.
  • I'm not a fan of the separate patch buttons for each layer. I know Vangelis and others got a lot of mileage out of combining preset layer patches, but I'd rather program my layers together. I'd much rather see bank and patch buttons as Yammy has used on their synths for decades. And dot matrix or OLED screens for patch names and parameter readings.
  • I'm also not a fan of that wooden piano action keyboard. It's heavy and klunky. Maybe it could be offered as an option.
  • A second LFO wouldn't hurt.
  • Filter ADSRs instead of that weird IL/AL thing.
  • One neat trick a few synth designers like Arturia used to mimic poly-pressure response is to offer single note key expression, either high note or low note. Perhaps this could be an option, but full on poly-pressure HAS to be on board.
  • I'd love to see some extra parameters in menus, such as sending pressure to alter parameters like pulse width or LFO speed.
  • Part of the CS-80's character was some "looseness" with the individual voices, where parameters like fine pitch, pulse width and filter parameters were slightly off. A "character" control with some individual parameters to tweak would be cool, along with a full on vintage selection.
  • An ARP/Sequencer would be dandy.
  • Effects should include a faithful recreation of the classic chorus/tremolo effect, along with a good dual multi-effects section as on the Motif and Montage. I love that White Room reverb and those stomp box emulations.
  • Stereo output is essential, and I wouldn't mind also seeing a separate voice layer output.
  • Multiple footswitch/damper inputs, as well as dual expression pedal inputs. I'd also like to see a breath controller input.
  • Full MIDI capability, controls send MIDI CCs rather than NRPNs if possible, making it an excellent MIDI controller.
  • A large 76 note keyboard would be excellent.
  • Perhaps like early Oberheims or the Moog One, offer a range of polyphony, from 6 to 16 voices. Voices could be upgraded by purchasing cards that could even be user installable.
Now for some more divergence.

Offer a fully analog synth, even if it comes at a boutique price. Also offer a VA synth at a price we mere taco eating mortals can afford. The VA could offer:
  • 24 to 64 voices of polyphony, with identical or near identical sound. Refrain from adding features like more filter models and OSC sync.
  • Be multi-timbral, with additional stereo outputs.
  • Perhaps be a smaller 5 octave keyboard - please, a minimum of 5 octaves.
  • The same form factor and features as the analog behemoth.
  • Less than $2500 US/Euro.
I think both of those beasts could co-exist comfortably on the market.
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Re: Yamaha Idea Scale CS80 Questionnaire

Unread post by puremusic » Fri Apr 26, 2019 12:13 am

Nice to see another enthusiast!

I've been looking for an add on ribbon for my keyboard for awhile. The ones I've found are all a little too short for my purposes!
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Re: Yamaha Idea Scale CS80 Questionnaire

Unread post by parametric » Fri Apr 26, 2019 1:31 am

The Alesis A6 Andromeda has a ribbon - just above the keys . . . .

I'd love one of those, but prices I've seen are pretty scary - and they don't come up that often . . .

Alesis Andromeda A6.jpg

This one was £3265 + shipping (from the Netherlands)

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Re: Yamaha Idea Scale CS80 Questionnaire

Unread post by EX5_etc » Fri Apr 26, 2019 2:04 am

They can design it in any way they want but I would prefer something modular. Technology has moved a lot so they can shrink all the original bells and whistles and still have enough space left for expansions.

- Sell the keybed and hefty power supply with some basic modules for starters so that people don't have to sell their house to buy the synthesizer. Leave space on it for additional modules. Offer the complete monster for sale to those that have the dough for it.

- Support the architecture for at least 10 years so that users can buy whatever module they need gradually and as their budget permits.

- Allow other companies to design modules that can be used with the main body. Work with them to avoid technical and legal issues.

If the effort is successful others will follow. And then you have started a revolution of some sort. I am not saying it's easy to do but Yamaha is a big company and they have the resources to try it.

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Re: Yamaha Idea Scale CS80 Questionnaire

Unread post by omissis » Tue Apr 30, 2019 11:49 pm

Hi all
First off, thank you for bringing up again attention to the cs which has been one of my obsessions over these years.

I could say that if Yamaha dares to build such a machine , they should bear in mind what the original concept was in 1976:

1. The CS series was never intended as an all-round synth, It was made with the purpose to get as near as possible to fill the gap between acoustic and electronic instruments

2. As per above, the specific interface on the panel was designed in order to have the player able to manouvre It with a natural feeling

3. The sound path of the CS Is very peculiar, think about the filter envelope and why we have a double resonant filter setup, It could have been so Easy to replicate a moog-like path. This Is because the goal was to achieve an acoustic feeling

That said it's essential to consider the sound signature of the CS:

1. VCO iG00153 got three waveforms out of a single sawtooth

- the main saw which was "boosted" in order to output a waveform as near as possible to a mathematic sawtooth, to get fullrange harmonics

- the pulse wave, again the goal was to reach a mathematic shape
- the TRIANGLE which was then shaped into sine and put post filters

The VCA iG00150 which ironically Is the MOST IMPORTANT component inside the circuitry and has a role in the non mathematic response of the envelopes

VCF iG00156 was rather a simple filter but had some quirks related to the forcefully limited resonance

Even more interesting Is the Ringmodulator which has a Kind of "clipped" sine which Is responsible for the specific sound, again non mathematical.

On top of It all there was the KAS aka the voice assigner which was responsible also for the famous Sustain-II behaviour

Last but no least we must consider that each voice module Is a synth on it's own so It was easy to have a detuned sound. Imo this was intentional too as far as this may look Crazy.

Once Yamaha gets these basical points we can start to talk about some Kind of "new" cs80s
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Re: Yamaha Idea Scale CS80 Questionnaire

Unread post by puremusic » Wed May 01, 2019 12:19 am

I hear you omissis. The more an electronic instrument gains the flexibility of an acoustic instrument, while retaining its electronic convenience, the happier I am.
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