Gibson Guitars - Poor Quality and High Prices and Bankruptcy

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Gibson Guitars - Poor Quality and High Prices and Bankruptcy

Unread post by Saul » Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:14 pm

How can a guy be in charge of such a company as Gibson and have such poor business sense? How can he not get what everyone else very clearly sees?

If I were a retailer I would simply not bother stocking Gibson. It's not like there aren't plenty of great alternatives on the market. Perhaps there is some hidden agenda here and he is deliberately running the company into the ground? I can't see any other logical reason for the position he takes and why he seems hell bent on making Gibson an enemy of over 80% of the worlds guitar retailers.
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Gibson Guitars - Poor Quality and High Prices and Bankruptcy

Unread post by SysExJohn » Tue Feb 27, 2018 10:19 am

Saul,

Sadly it's a fact that some people have an attitude "don't confuse me with the facts, I've made up my mind!"

I met more than a few in ICL in the twenty years I worked there.
It doesn't matter what you tell them, or how you explain to them how a particular thing works or doesn't work, they doggedly pursue the decision they've made unto its eventual failure. I believe, just a theory, that they are unable to admit when they've made a mistake. I found it to be especially true when people have been promoted beyond their level of competence.

They need to be "seen" as decisive decision makers.

When you point out, post disaster, what they did, they always shift the blame to ... the customer, the engineers, the software designers, etc.
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Gibson Guitars - Poor Quality and High Prices and Bankruptcy

Unread post by Saul » Tue Feb 27, 2018 10:26 am

That sounds about right John. Happily I have not had to deal with many people like this and when I have I could simply ignore them and walk away...the joys of being self-employed ;)

My wife however has had to deal with a lot of people like this, especially when she worked at the Telegraph. Some of the most bizarre decisions I have ever come across have been made at that place and like watching a car crash in slow motion you can see it coming and warn them to get out of the way but no, they stand there and wait for the crash. And then of course as you said, they shift the blame to everyone else.

Reminds me of a certain president of a large country at the moment ;)
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Gibson Guitars - Poor Quality and High Prices and Bankruptcy

Unread post by SysExJohn » Tue Feb 27, 2018 10:38 am

Yup!

As the saying goes, been there, done that.
There was a director in ICL, who had been the manager of an extremely effective software development project.
He was promoted to directorship and, it was obvious to me at least, was totally out of his depth.
You could see the sort of lost look in his eyes sometimes.
Due to his ineptitude we had to shut down the network centre which led to a loss, I'd estimate, of upwards of 50 million quids worth of business.
It meant ICL could no longer demonstrate LANs, WANs, digital PABXs ...
Not to mention the redundancy of some extremely competent, dedicated people.
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Gibson Guitars - Poor Quality and High Prices and Bankruptcy

Unread post by Cuthbert » Tue Feb 27, 2018 5:03 pm

Saul wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:14 pm
If I were a retailer I would simply not bother stocking Gibson. It's not like there aren't plenty of great alternatives on the market.
No there aren't.

If you want the sound of a Les Paul you need to get a Les Paul, you might Clapton or Page for details, and that's the problem: people don't buy just a piece of wood but they want a part of an heritage when they buy a Fender, a Gibson, a Martin or even a PRS that in few time created a small niche for themselves as well.

There are people who drive 200 km just to come and try those guitars.
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Gibson Guitars - Poor Quality and High Prices and Bankruptcy

Unread post by Saul » Tue Feb 27, 2018 7:07 pm

There loads of alternatives to a Gibson Les Paul...an Epiphone Les Paul for a start. Far better value for money. You can also get the sound of a Les Paul through other guitars using modeling and software. Then there are the "Les Paul" type guitars such as those from PRS, Tokai, Yamaha and so on.

All of these are far superior to anything Gibson have ever put out.

Yamaha Weddington

Tom Anderson Bulldog

Esp LTD EC1000

Paul Reed Smith Singlecut

Guild Bluesbird

Heritage H-157

Collings City Limits

Then you have a load of MIJ guitars, which of course Gibson issued endless lawsuits for, from Greco, Ibanez etc.

Clapton, Page...who cares? they are people same as me. Not gods or super humans. Fine guitarists for sure but If I am spending MY money then my opinion is the only one that counts.

If your one of those people who believe that there is nothing as good as a Gibson Les Paul and that it's worth some ridiculous amount of money that's fine, it's your cash but as far as I'm concerned they are over price and over hyped, that has always been the case and will remain so for the foreseeable future.
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Gibson Guitars - Poor Quality and High Prices and Bankruptcy

Unread post by Asmikace » Wed Feb 28, 2018 12:11 am

http://ultimateclassicrock.com/gibson-b ... ar-stores/

Henry claims that guitar stores are the problem of Gibson even though Gibson makes it impossible for smaller retailers to stock a minimum and pay the fees.

Saul, You should add those Vintage Les Paul copies on that list as well. Some small guitar store I stop at when I drive through Indianapolis carry them and great guitars for the price especially that Peter Green model.
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Gibson Guitars - Poor Quality and High Prices and Bankruptcy

Unread post by Saul » Wed Feb 28, 2018 12:50 am

Oh yeah forgot about Vintage! They make some fantastic guitars. We have a dealer just down the road from us. Might drop in and have a look when all this snow clears up.
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Gibson Guitars - Poor Quality and High Prices and Bankruptcy

Unread post by parametric » Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:39 am

I can always appreciate the desire to own an icon - The Real Deal.

There is a certain PRIDE in owning and using such an item, which I understand entirely.

Back in time when I was training to be a Pro Photographer - I wanted a Nikon F Photomic FTn.

It was the most expensive 35mm SLR on the Market back in 1971

~£315 from a Discount Store with the f1.4 50mm Nikkor.

There were other Quality Japanese SLRs around at the time - Pentax Spotmatic, CanonFT, Minolta SRT101

were the high profile ones, but the Nikon was pretty much KING at the time with the Largest "System"

(Lenses etc) of all.

I think they're still in the Guinness Book of Records for the most extensive "System"?

(OK, I concede, there was also the Leicaflex - which was MORE Expensive - but was NOT really Mainstream).

My Folks bought me the Nikon for my 20th Birthday as I started College. I used it professionally up till 1990.

As far as Gear is concerned, I could afford to buy a Montage tomorrow, but it's not what I need . . .

I've ALWAYS lusted after a MiniMoog, and could also afford to Buy the reissue from Moog tomorrow @ ~£3k,

but I Don't Gig and really can't justify that expense.

What I CAN justify, is the Behringer Model D Clone - which will give me those sounds, with ALL the tweakability

available - and in the form I'd almost certainly be using it . . . Under midi control - into a DAW . . . .

As I've mentioned before in here, I played a Gibson Les Paul Deluxe at my second (and final) gig onstage -

and have to say it was a delight to play - silky smooth and effortless.

Lovely though it was - the difference (to my own Vox LP Copy) was not sufficient to justify (IMO) the

ENORMOUS price difference, but it WAS an experience I've never forgotten . . .

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Gibson Guitars - Poor Quality and High Prices and Bankruptcy

Unread post by Saul » Wed Feb 28, 2018 10:29 am

It's one of those debates Chris that can rumble on and on. My perspective is it's all about the name and nothing about the quality. Case in point. I have these two Dowina acoustic guitars here. Equal to any Taylor, Gibson or Martin BUT they are not a well known brand. Once people play them of course the smoke screen lifts and they realise what they have been missing.

There are so many great guitars out there but they are overshadowed by "brand" names that simply do not deserve the kudos paid to them. Perhaps they did once, back when quality control meant something but now it's all about the name.

The question with Gibson is Quality Control and Value For Money. Have they consistently nailed both? If two people spend £3k on the same model Les Paul and one get's a superbly finished guitar, well made and expertly set up but the other receives a guitar with dodgy frets. loose pickups and paint chips on the body how is that in any way acceptable?

A person should confidently be able to spend three grand on a Gibson and KNOW it will be of excellent quality in both how it sounds and how it is put together.

In terms of value for money, I just don't see the value in a £3k Gibson over much less costly alternatives. Gibson fans of course will have an entirely different view and that's fine. It's their money and their choice.

Oh and totally agree about the Behringer Model D Clone....now THAT is value for money ;)
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Gibson Guitars - Poor Quality and High Prices and Bankruptcy

Unread post by parametric » Wed Feb 28, 2018 3:58 pm

I agree entirely Saul.

It does HIGHLIGHT the sheer irresponsibility of messing with a Brand that is already revered . . .

it can all be destroyed in a heartbeat . . .

The same "nonsense" exists elsewhere. Do you remember when CD Audio decks first became available?

Everyone who cared about quality was anxious to hear the wonder the huge dynamic range -

sound appearing out of "nowhere" . . .

Around that time - NAXOS appeared (IIRC). They caused a bit of a stir, because:

A) They were cheaper than the regular CDs, and

B) They were all DDD recordings. Desirable if you are wanting to experience the best quality . . .

As with all things, Nothing is for "Nothing" . . . and in the case of NAXOS recordings, the artists,

orchestras and conductors were largely from Eastern Europe and mostly unknown, in the West.

That said, the standard of Musicianship was unquestionably HIGH (IMO) as was the recording "Tech".

Nevertheless, Many balked at buying them, 'cos they weren't LSO, Berliner Philhamonik, von Karajan et al . . . .

This is Branding again. The high rollers in the Classical field are paid more - and the Record companies here

expect to earn more - so you pay more - typically back then £10 - £12.99 (IIRC). The NAXOS were £5.99 . . .

I have a number of them and they are perfectly fine, both Musically AND Technically (recording quality).

Arguments will continue to rage on about "interpretation", irrespective of BRAND - in any case :lol:

Parallels nicely with the "Unknown Makes" in the Guitar argument, don't you think? ((i))

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Gibson Guitars - Poor Quality and High Prices and Bankruptcy

Unread post by Saul » Wed Feb 28, 2018 4:48 pm

I do indeed remember Naxos. I also remember all the complete nonsense that was bandied about when the CD player first appeared. "Like having the band/orchestra in your living room" was one often used phrase. Of course the reality was anything but.

Sure there were some really great recordings out there but you had to pay close attention to what was on the label. DDD was the thing to go for but most recordings, as I remember them were AAD so only the last part of the process was actually digital?

I don't think I have actually played a CD for years. I still have a box of them under my desk but as I can stream everything I own there seems little point in digging them out. Anyway I don't have a dedicated cd player anymore, just the mac and pc so not exactly perfect for the task.

Yeah it does parallel very closely with the "unknown" guitar brands argument. It's a sad fact but most people taking up guitar will just gravitate to Gibson, Fender, Epiphone or indeed Yamaha by default and never realise until much later that there are a whole world of superb guitars they could have chosen from.

Must admit I am on a bit of mission with this one. Why start out on a mediocre brand name guitar when you can buy a much better guitar for the same money that you will still want to play many years from now?

Keyboards are a slightly different proposition in that there aren't really any unknown brands that a new user would need to know about. Even the smaller producers are pretty well known by most of us? The only one that springs to mind is GEM (General Music) http://www.generalmusic.fi and even they are "fairly" well known. I have certainly been aware of them since they brought out the much underrated S2 and S3 series in 1992.

It strikes me that people reading this thread may think I have something against Gibson guitars? I don't, not at all. I HOPE they will turn it around, get quality control sorted and start being more realistic with their pricing...oh and stop treating retailers like the enemy. That would be a perfect outcome for me :)
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Gibson Guitars - Poor Quality and High Prices and Bankruptcy

Unread post by Cuthbert » Wed Feb 28, 2018 10:44 pm

Saul wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 7:07 pm
There loads of alternatives to a Gibson Les Paul...an Epiphone Les Paul for a start.
Except that it's not.

Not a single Epiphone player who is not delusional will say that, even looking a both guitars (an Epi Les Paul Custom and a Gibson one) you will realise it.

All the other guitars you mentioned are cheap knockoff with no value whatsoever that are trying to cash in on an original design, which is something most of the people care, unless you are somebody who wear a fake Rolex to your wealth and once caught you say "Ehi, but I saved a lot of money!". :roll:
Saul wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 10:29 am
The question with Gibson is Quality Control and Value For Money. Have they consistently nailed both? If two people spend £3k on the same model Les Paul and one get's a superbly finished guitar, well made and expertly set up but the other receives a guitar with dodgy frets. loose pickups and paint chips on the body how is that in any way acceptable?
This makes more sense: my feeling is that Henry J is not interested in making good quality 3k Gibsons and he wants to sell the 5k or even the 10k guitars. In 1999 I bought my LP Classic that I still have, at the time it was expensive (about 2k I would say adjusting for inflation) but the quality was quite good, it was historically "inspired" by the 1960 Standard (nickel hardware, 1960 slim neck profile,small Klusons, correct headstock shape...), not like a more expensive historic but good enough. All the Classics, Standards and Customs of the era were good guitars (Fenders as well). Then Henry changed the customer's focus from the musician to the collectors with the results we see.

So, instead of buying fake guitars perhaps it's better to buy a used and underrated LP of the 90s.
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Gibson Guitars - Poor Quality and High Prices and Bankruptcy

Unread post by Saul » Thu Mar 01, 2018 12:12 am

You can call them cheap knock offs if it makes you feel better but for me all the guitars I mentioned are vastly superior to anything Gibson put out. You pay the big bucks if you want. I'll save my money and be very happy to do it :)
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Gibson Guitars - Poor Quality and High Prices and Bankruptcy

Unread post by Asmikace » Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:17 pm

https://www.digitalmusicnews.com/2018/0 ... quisition/

A Chinese investment consortium wants to buy Gibson for firesale which is a depressing since how Gibson is associated with American craftsmanship. Those Chibsons might become the Gibson sadly.

In somewhat related news, Heritage guitars are laying off employees as well. If Gibson gets gutted, I was hoping Heritage would carry part of the legacy.
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