MDF3 needed

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wynn
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MDF3 needed

Unread post by wynn » Thu Jun 08, 2017 3:40 am

Hi all, I've joined up here hoping someone may be able to help me. I've got a Yamaha DG80 guitar amp. The really cool one from the 90's with the motorised knobs. I tried to update the firmware via midi from my PC and it all went wrong. It looks like the best chance I've got of saving my amp is to try the upgrade again but from a Yamaha MDF3 midi filer. Apparently, this is the only machine that can reliably do this job.
MDF3's are still selling for a lot of money and what I'd like to do is find someone who would lend or hire one to me for this single task. I'm in South Wales in the UK if anyone can help.
Thanks Wynn
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Derek
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Re: MDF3 needed

Unread post by Derek » Thu Jun 08, 2017 7:00 am

Hello and welcome from somebody else in Wales!

What software were you using on PC for the firmware update?

I don't have an MDF3 myself, but (assuming this dump is SYSEX in a MIDI file) the only real issue with MIDI SYSEX playback on a PC is usually that any SYSEX in a MIDI file is played and sent sent in one large chunk, which the recipient cannot handle due to small buffer sizes.

I have it lodged in my memory that Windows Media Player can be used when all else has failed. I am also certain that MIDIOX allows you to configure buffer sizes and number of buffers for sending SYSEX (but am away from home right now, so cannot check).

my Java librarian software for different synths is quite configurable in respect to this, including buffer size, and delay to wait between buffer sends. So, whilst I do not have a librarian for this device, if you are really stuck, I could hack together something reasonable quickly for general MIDI file send for situations like this.
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Derek Cook

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Re: MDF3 needed

Unread post by Saul » Thu Jun 08, 2017 8:45 am

Hi Wynn. Welcome to the forum. I see Derek has sorted out your multi post issues. I know it seems like the best way to get an answer but we do monitor the forum more than most so the one post will get people's attention :)

The MDF3 is certainly not cheap right now so I'm not surprised you don't really want to go down the route of buying one but, on the other hand, since prices are holding up, you could buy one and do what you need to do with it and then resell it for the same as you paid for it.

Hope you manage to get it sorted. Keep us posted!
Saul
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Re: MDF3 needed

Unread post by Buzzard » Thu Jun 08, 2017 4:34 pm

Saul wrote:
Thu Jun 08, 2017 8:45 am
you could buy one and do what you need to do with it and then resell it for the same as you paid for it.
Bingo Saul, if it can save the DG-80 amp, that's a doable option. ((i))
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Hi Wynn, Welcome to the Yamaha Forums.

It looks like updating firmware in a DG amp can turn out to be a nightmare,
even though the result of a successful upgrade is totally worth it.

At the moment I have two DG amps: DG-100 212 and a DG-130 head.
Both were upgraded before I bought them second hand, by former owners or shop.
Both are not the "A" type, and therefore without the upgrade factory installed.

If the MDF-3 is a reliable device for upgrading the DG firmware, I would buy one and sell it after upgrading.

Best Regards
Peter
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Re: MDF3 needed

Unread post by Derek » Thu Jun 08, 2017 5:00 pm

Hi,

My opinion FWIW is that the buy a MDF3 and then sell approach is fine until you need to do an upgrade again, and you will be in the same boat - and will you be able to find another one.... Maybe you only need to do it once......

My other question, is how easy is it to get the data onto a MDF3 these days?

If this were my problem, I would seriously look at getting a computer based solution approach going. A computer is perfectly capable of playing back a MIDI file as much as a MDF3 can. I do it all the time with my synths. My Korg Kronos has software for doing MIDI SYSEX over USB and the PCG file sizes can be 50 MB if you include all banks!

The issue, as I have mentioned, is 99.9% likely to be based around whatever sending program is in use trying to send too much SYSEX data in one go. I.e. it sees a single SYSEX message and is trying to send it all in one go instead of chunking it. You might even find that the problem is not the PC, but might even be the MIDI interface you are using, so you need some flexibility in the sending program, like I have in my Librarians.

You should be able to find (or write as I have offered) a solution where you split the message down into more bite sized chunks and allow a delay between each send. It's what I do for my synths. I would be very surprised if that approach does not work.

It's like you trying to eat an elephant in one bite. It is not going to happen! If you salami slice it, and eat it bit by bit, you stand a chance of digesting it. ;)

Strange analogy maybe, but it is based on an old Hindu Proverb: "An ant can eat an elephant in small chunks". :D

As mentioned, look at MIDIOX. I am sure it can chunk messages. If it can't I offer to write a Java program that does it. I have all of the required means to do it in my librarians. I just need to make a generic sender. Wouldn't be too hard.
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Derek Cook

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Re: MDF3 needed

Unread post by Sonus » Thu Jun 08, 2017 5:23 pm

There's an excellent tool but you need a decent USB-MIDI interface: 963k :!:

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Re: MDF3 needed

Unread post by Buzzard » Thu Jun 08, 2017 5:36 pm

Derek wrote:
Thu Jun 08, 2017 5:00 pm
Hi,

My opinion FWIW is that the buy a MDF3 and then sell approach is fine until you need to do an upgrade again, and you will be in the same boat - and will you be able to find another one.... Maybe you only need to do it once......
Cheers Derek.

It will be a one off upgrade.

The DG amps were the hot stuff just around year 2000, before the THR amps.

The firmware upgrade gave the amp extra effects: chorus and tremolo, and possibly enhancing some of the 8 preset amp types.

No other upgrades were made and released after the "A" firmware upgrade.

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Peter
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Re: MDF3 needed

Unread post by Saul » Thu Jun 08, 2017 6:56 pm

I think Wynn found his way to the Yahoo DG Series User Group so perhaps he found a solution there?
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Re: MDF3 needed

Unread post by wynn » Thu Jun 08, 2017 9:34 pm

Hi all, thanks for the replies and sorry about the multiple posts, wasn't sure of the best place to put this thread. The full story here is that after a lot of research I found that the most reliable way of updating this amp, other than an MDF3, was a computer running Win 98 and a souncard gameport to midi cable. I got all of this together after a few friends searched attics for an old machine. I then used the update program as shown by Sonus above. The initial test phase went ok, but half way through the update something went wrong and now the old firmware is gone and I'm stuck.
From what I've gathered on other threads Derek is right about this being an issue with buffers and timing of the midi file being played into the dg80, but I've no idea how to deal with that. (I'm a guitarist, don't understand midi). You're right Saul I've been getting a lot of help with this at the Yahoo group. This isn't an uncommon problem with these amps. If I can't find an MDF3 I'm going to go to a friend's studio and try the upgrade via logic on a mac which I've been told is the next best thing to an MDF3.
It's a really frustrating situation because this is such a great amp.
Derek I've tried using midiox but I really don't know what I'm doing and what settings to use. If you could point me in the right direction I'll fire up the win 98 machine and give it another try.
Thanks again for all the information and support.
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Re: MDF3 needed

Unread post by Sonus » Fri Jun 16, 2017 7:16 am

DG80V200.MID is a multi-packet system exclusive message, the packets are transmitted at 10ms intervals.
The first packet uses the 0xF0 status, whereas the second and subsequent packets use the 0xF7 status.
MIDI applications hardly recognize this use of the 0xF7 status referred to as a continuation event.

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Re: MDF3 needed

Unread post by wynn » Sun Jun 18, 2017 4:43 pm

That's intereseting, I tried the update with a friend's Nuendo/mac setup and it recognised the first bit, ie. went through the CL and LD messages, but went no further, maybe because these bits weren't understood. Unfortunately the Mac verrsion of Yamaha's updater won't run on any recent macs so I couldn't try that. I'm waiting for an Edirol Um-1x to arrive so that I can try the windows updater again, apparently the UM-1x is often successful in this role.
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Re: MDF3 needed

Unread post by wynn » Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:13 pm

I was advised on another group that the edirol UM-1x interface would do the job and it did. I now have my amp fully working and updated. I ran the Yamaha updater program on an old windows98 machine with the edirol and it worked perfectly. Thanks for all the support guys.
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Re: MDF3 needed

Unread post by Buzzard » Tue Jun 20, 2017 4:46 am

wynn wrote:
Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:13 pm
I was advised on another group that the edirol UM-1x interface would do the job and it did. I now have my amp fully working and updated. I ran the Yamaha updater program on an old windows98 machine with the edirol and it worked perfectly. Thanks for all the support guys.
Brilliant, you've been struggling for a long time, I'm very happy to hear that you now have a working DG amp.

Regards
Peter
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Re: MDF3 needed

Unread post by guitarworks1960 » Mon Apr 08, 2019 9:51 am

hi all....I believe I have all the necessary tools to upgrade the firmware on my V1 DG80...PC w /win98, a MIDI interface (E-mu 2x2...not Edirol but the e-mu should work) only....I do Not have the software files for the MIDI upgrade! I hope someone in this forum can help and maybe forward me a copy of the files? can't seem to find them anywhere...or at the very least I would be grateful if someone had a link to where I might obtain the files? thanks ever so much...
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