Help with DX7 iiFD with E! Board

This section is for all variants of the Yamaha DX series. DX1/DX100/DX11/DX21/DX27/DX27S/DX5/ DX7/DX7IID/DX7IIFD/DX7S/DX9/TX81Z/TX7

Moderators: Derek, parametric, Saul

User avatar
Zonkyzonk
Member
Member
Posts: 16
Joined: Thu Oct 05, 2017 4:55 am
Canada

Help with DX7 iiFD with E! Board

Unread post by Zonkyzonk » Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:03 pm

Hello!

I've had this thing for around 6 months now, and I have to say... It pisses me off...

1- when I got it, free, the psu caps were dead. 15$ later and a fix, it is back from the dead.

2- battery was dead. This is where hell starts for me... The synth didn't produce a sound. Turns out it all has to do with the battery change. Put in a socket thingy along with a new battery. Still no sound. Fffffffffon the screen.

3- found out I had to sysex the data back into the synth. Figured it out. Uploaded several syx files. I finally get sound. Sound really nice! Tried a few syx files found on the net. Still confused about how and where it stores the banks, but I still can access them. The names of the programs come up! The synth is useful again! Yayyy!

4- Satisfied, turned it off to return to it in the morning.

5- upon waking up, all my patches are gone. No sound, fffffffffff, same as if the battery was dead. I put in another battery. Reloaded the syx files. This time, I turned it off only 20 seconds. The patches are still there, synth still produces sound. Turned it off again, this time 10 minutes... patches are gone, no sound, ffffffffff on screen.

6- tried keeping the synth on all night with a new battery. The only thing it does is make it longer that the synth temporarily retain the data... eventually, the data gets erased, usually within a minute of being turned off.

I know the synth works, and when it's turned on, it works well. I keep it on for days at a time, then shut if off and I have to reuplaod everything again..

So for the last 5 months, the only way to play this synth is to sysex all the files and keeping it on as long as possible. The keyboard accepts the data, but doesn't retain it. I have firmware 1.18 installed, and I am wondering: what the heck is wrong? Tried several batteries, new batteries. It has cost me more in batteries than in capacitors to revive the board. I used a multimeter: the batteries are fine. I'm stumped. Can it be the E! Board interfering??

Is there a way to remove the E! Board and revert to the original stock machine!? I have no real use for an E! Board. All I want is to be able to stock 2x32 instruments, and that upon turning it of then on, my patches remain. I have no self-test procedure, as I hear it came in firmwares after 1.18. I know I am close to finding a solution, i just don't know where to go now...

Anybody else had this issue or similar problems?
What do you suggest I do? Should I just accept the fact that it's a zombie with a bad case of Short term memory problems? I think I might sell it due to it being a pain in my ass, but then again, I use it as a controller, and i like the feel of it... I know I should keep it..

Thanks for any help!!

Anybody has a suggestion here?
User avatar
rawl747
Member
Member
Posts: 137
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:43 pm
United States of America

Re: Help with DX7 iiFD with E! Board

Unread post by rawl747 » Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:11 pm

could be a bad diode that connects the battery isolating it from being charged when powered on. Too much heat when removing the original battery might have taken it out.
DX7 (MKI) w/ E! Card & S80 kb synths
WX7 & MDT (Morrison Digital Trumpet) MIDI windcontrollers
VL70m synth module w/ Patchman Turbo
Tx81Z, FB-01, Roland XV-5080 synth modules - NEW - Emu Emulator E6400 - thanks to James M.
Win 10 Pro 64 bit with Cubase9, Kontakt5, Komplete11, IKMultimedia SampleTank 3 & 2.5XL, AAS Suite, BiaB 2016, Emulator X v2 & v3

"...there is no one absolutely essential truth for all people and ... every time I look at a coin, I instinctively want to look at the other side." -Peter Jennings
User avatar
Zonkyzonk
Member
Member
Posts: 16
Joined: Thu Oct 05, 2017 4:55 am
Canada

Re: Help with DX7 iiFD with E! Board

Unread post by Zonkyzonk » Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:35 pm

Hmmmm.... and if I were to ask, where would that diode be? I'll open the synth and take a look again.... I am pretty sure I was careful with the heat (mi iron is a 25W, low heat) and it's not my first job... but yeah, it is something I had not thought about...
User avatar
rawl747
Member
Member
Posts: 137
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:43 pm
United States of America

Re: Help with DX7 iiFD with E! Board

Unread post by rawl747 » Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:44 pm

The diode is very close to the original diode in my DX7 MKI since its purpose is to isolate the battery from the voltage that the power supply supplies to the volatile RAM memory. I would expect it to share a connection via a board trace with the + side of the battery such that the battery supplies the DC voltage to the volatile RAM when the power is off but allows the power supply to supply it when the power is on without sending an undesirable charging voltage to the battery which is not re-chargeable.

So, look for one end of the diode to be electrically connected to the + side of the battery via a board trace. If the diode is open, Then the battery is not supplying any voltage to the volatile RAM at all when the power is off.

Of course, IF you wired the battery holder backwards that would present a similar symptom. But, I have heard of the isolation diode getting damaged when removing the original battery if it was soldered in place. There is also the possibility that you damaged the circuit board trace itself when removing the battery from the board. In either case it sounds like the battery voltage is not making it to the volatile RAM to keep its memory intact when power is turned off.

I also don't think your problem is with your E! card.

BTW, if you get REALLY frustrated, I have always wanted a DX7II with E! card myself...
DX7 (MKI) w/ E! Card & S80 kb synths
WX7 & MDT (Morrison Digital Trumpet) MIDI windcontrollers
VL70m synth module w/ Patchman Turbo
Tx81Z, FB-01, Roland XV-5080 synth modules - NEW - Emu Emulator E6400 - thanks to James M.
Win 10 Pro 64 bit with Cubase9, Kontakt5, Komplete11, IKMultimedia SampleTank 3 & 2.5XL, AAS Suite, BiaB 2016, Emulator X v2 & v3

"...there is no one absolutely essential truth for all people and ... every time I look at a coin, I instinctively want to look at the other side." -Peter Jennings
User avatar
Miks
Specialist Moderator
Specialist Moderator
Posts: 1659
Joined: Fri Oct 31, 2008 1:00 am
Contact:
Germany

Re: Help with DX7 iiFD with E! Board

Unread post by Miks » Wed Feb 07, 2018 1:39 am

Here's (arrow) where the Diode (D4) is located:
Battery.jpg
This is a snippet from the schematic showing the 'way' (in red) of the battery power that fires the SRAM ICs 25 & 26 via their Pin(s)28 when the synth is switched OFF!.
Battery 2.jpg
Battery 2.jpg (30.87 KiB) Viewed 635 times
Check with a meter if the battery power goes all the way from the positive pole across D4 -> R40 -> to the SRAM's. If not, check for continuity to see if there's an interruption. Maybe the tantalum capacitor (C38, marked with a red circle) is defect - drawing too much current from the coin cell... for testing purposes you can desolder the capacitor - the synth should work without it. It 'buffers' the battery power for some more stability. If all is good without the cap you'll need to replace it - a common type of an electrolytic cap (4.7µF/16V) will do the trick - take care of the polarity!.

Let us know how you go on...
My (key related) gear (in alphabetical order):
Kawai: K1 II
Korg: M1 (up'd to EX, w/ 'Cool Blue'), M1REX (w/ 'Cool Blue'), Poly-800
Roland: D-50, D-110, D-550, PG-1000
Yamaha: AW1600, DX7IID (w/ 'Cool Blue'), EX5R, RM50, RX5, SY99 (w/ 'Cool Blue'), TG500, TX-802, YMM2
Sector101: SYEMB05 (5x), SYEMB06 (3x), EXFLM2 (1kit), MCD Sweet16 (1x), WaveBlade 8MB Card (1x) & 1x Programmer Unit for WaveBlade


http://rescuer-uslar.de/
https://www.facebook.com/Rescuer.Uslar/
User avatar
rawl747
Member
Member
Posts: 137
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:43 pm
United States of America

Re: Help with DX7 iiFD with E! Board

Unread post by rawl747 » Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:23 pm

Thanks Miks for the very clear photos and tip about the cap. With only a DX7 MKI, I can only go so far with my suggestions but you really took it to the next level.

Cheers,
Rawl
DX7 (MKI) w/ E! Card & S80 kb synths
WX7 & MDT (Morrison Digital Trumpet) MIDI windcontrollers
VL70m synth module w/ Patchman Turbo
Tx81Z, FB-01, Roland XV-5080 synth modules - NEW - Emu Emulator E6400 - thanks to James M.
Win 10 Pro 64 bit with Cubase9, Kontakt5, Komplete11, IKMultimedia SampleTank 3 & 2.5XL, AAS Suite, BiaB 2016, Emulator X v2 & v3

"...there is no one absolutely essential truth for all people and ... every time I look at a coin, I instinctively want to look at the other side." -Peter Jennings
User avatar
Miks
Specialist Moderator
Specialist Moderator
Posts: 1659
Joined: Fri Oct 31, 2008 1:00 am
Contact:
Germany

Re: Help with DX7 iiFD with E! Board

Unread post by Miks » Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:42 pm

rawl747 wrote: Thanks Miks for the very clear photos and tip about the cap. With only a DX7 MKI, I can only go so far with my suggestions but you really took it to the next level.
My pleasure - as we all know: a picture says a thousand words... :wink:
My (key related) gear (in alphabetical order):
Kawai: K1 II
Korg: M1 (up'd to EX, w/ 'Cool Blue'), M1REX (w/ 'Cool Blue'), Poly-800
Roland: D-50, D-110, D-550, PG-1000
Yamaha: AW1600, DX7IID (w/ 'Cool Blue'), EX5R, RM50, RX5, SY99 (w/ 'Cool Blue'), TG500, TX-802, YMM2
Sector101: SYEMB05 (5x), SYEMB06 (3x), EXFLM2 (1kit), MCD Sweet16 (1x), WaveBlade 8MB Card (1x) & 1x Programmer Unit for WaveBlade


http://rescuer-uslar.de/
https://www.facebook.com/Rescuer.Uslar/
User avatar
rawl747
Member
Member
Posts: 137
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:43 pm
United States of America

Re: Help with DX7 iiFD with E! Board

Unread post by rawl747 » Wed Feb 07, 2018 5:10 pm

Hopefully this will help Zonkyzonk get to the bottom of his problem.

I just recently replaced a p/s electrolytic that was the cause of all my problems with my Emulator e6400 Classic sampler synth. A 100uf / 450v replacement put things right. ALL electrolytic caps of that vintage are suspect!

Rawl
DX7 (MKI) w/ E! Card & S80 kb synths
WX7 & MDT (Morrison Digital Trumpet) MIDI windcontrollers
VL70m synth module w/ Patchman Turbo
Tx81Z, FB-01, Roland XV-5080 synth modules - NEW - Emu Emulator E6400 - thanks to James M.
Win 10 Pro 64 bit with Cubase9, Kontakt5, Komplete11, IKMultimedia SampleTank 3 & 2.5XL, AAS Suite, BiaB 2016, Emulator X v2 & v3

"...there is no one absolutely essential truth for all people and ... every time I look at a coin, I instinctively want to look at the other side." -Peter Jennings
User avatar
Miks
Specialist Moderator
Specialist Moderator
Posts: 1659
Joined: Fri Oct 31, 2008 1:00 am
Contact:
Germany

Re: Help with DX7 iiFD with E! Board

Unread post by Miks » Wed Feb 07, 2018 5:20 pm

rawl747 wrote: ALL electrolytic caps of that vintage are suspect!
How true! I have a Korg M1R where the electrolytic cap had leaked onto the mainboard - exact that one 'buffering' the battery voltage. Internal memory was lost if you turned the synth OFF. Searched for the reason, found it, replaced it - but to no avail! 8O

In the end it turned out to be a copper trace that had been 'eaten up' by the leaked acid - that one that supplies the RAM's (at pin 28... :wink: ) when the synth is OFF. A short piece of wire to bypass the interruption did the trick and all is fine since then...
My (key related) gear (in alphabetical order):
Kawai: K1 II
Korg: M1 (up'd to EX, w/ 'Cool Blue'), M1REX (w/ 'Cool Blue'), Poly-800
Roland: D-50, D-110, D-550, PG-1000
Yamaha: AW1600, DX7IID (w/ 'Cool Blue'), EX5R, RM50, RX5, SY99 (w/ 'Cool Blue'), TG500, TX-802, YMM2
Sector101: SYEMB05 (5x), SYEMB06 (3x), EXFLM2 (1kit), MCD Sweet16 (1x), WaveBlade 8MB Card (1x) & 1x Programmer Unit for WaveBlade


http://rescuer-uslar.de/
https://www.facebook.com/Rescuer.Uslar/
User avatar
Zonkyzonk
Member
Member
Posts: 16
Joined: Thu Oct 05, 2017 4:55 am
Canada

Re: Help with DX7 iiFD with E! Board

Unread post by Zonkyzonk » Fri Feb 09, 2018 2:41 am

ok... update.....

So I took out the CAP 38. The same thing occurs. But it seems to occur more slowly. Another thing I noticed is that instead of ffffffffffff, it was garbled text. Performance mode was stuck, I reinitialized performance, voice A and then voice B, then single, dual and split modes worked. What I am really wondering, is that if the CAP 38 really was crapping out, did it drain my battery and this is why I am getting a corrupt memory, but slowly (with different garbled characters instead of fffffffffff)?

In any case, I ordered capacitors, they should be here in a while. Bought a sturdier holder as well. All I can do now is load the patches by sysex every time, but if i edit anything, it's sure to be lost.. I think i'll try finding a RAM4 cartridge and dump the synth ERAM1, ERAM2, ERAM3, PERFORMACE, INT and all the patches (I think you're the one who gave me those Miks - actually, it was the very first step into fixing up this synth) and reload from there... Would this be a good workaround always having to connect the PC? will having an E! board make things complicated?

I have played and tested a lot this synth in the last days, and I am growing to really like it. I found a bank, analogset.syx... sounds really good with tweaking... but then I lost everything... :(
User avatar
Miks
Specialist Moderator
Specialist Moderator
Posts: 1659
Joined: Fri Oct 31, 2008 1:00 am
Contact:
Germany

Re: Help with DX7 iiFD with E! Board

Unread post by Miks » Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:22 pm

Zonkyzonk wrote:I have played and tested a lot this synth in the last days, and I am growing to really like it. I found a bank, analogset.syx... sounds really good with tweaking... but then I lost everything...
IF you're tweaking sounds on your DX in its momentary state you should save these via Midi to a computer before switching off the synth - otherwise you'll lose your sound(s) (as you've already found out..).
So I took out the CAP 38. The same thing occurs. But it seems to occur more slowly.
Perhaps the cap (if defacto defective) has drawn so much current so that the battery voltage is too low now? Please measure its voltage while the synth is turned OFF - should not be less than, lets say, 2.6 volts.

Please report your findings...
My (key related) gear (in alphabetical order):
Kawai: K1 II
Korg: M1 (up'd to EX, w/ 'Cool Blue'), M1REX (w/ 'Cool Blue'), Poly-800
Roland: D-50, D-110, D-550, PG-1000
Yamaha: AW1600, DX7IID (w/ 'Cool Blue'), EX5R, RM50, RX5, SY99 (w/ 'Cool Blue'), TG500, TX-802, YMM2
Sector101: SYEMB05 (5x), SYEMB06 (3x), EXFLM2 (1kit), MCD Sweet16 (1x), WaveBlade 8MB Card (1x) & 1x Programmer Unit for WaveBlade


http://rescuer-uslar.de/
https://www.facebook.com/Rescuer.Uslar/
User avatar
Zonkyzonk
Member
Member
Posts: 16
Joined: Thu Oct 05, 2017 4:55 am
Canada

Re: Help with DX7 iiFD with E! Board

Unread post by Zonkyzonk » Sat Feb 10, 2018 6:16 am

Hey there Miks.I'll report tomorrow about the voltage, but I'm waiting for my order of: a) new batteries, b) a new, better holder, c) capacitor. If i upload using a computer, all is good... i might even keep it running up to getting the parts... do you think it would be a good idea to buy a ram4 card?
User avatar
Miks
Specialist Moderator
Specialist Moderator
Posts: 1659
Joined: Fri Oct 31, 2008 1:00 am
Contact:
Germany

Re: Help with DX7 iiFD with E! Board

Unread post by Miks » Sat Feb 10, 2018 5:53 pm

Zonkyzonk wrote:do you think it would be a good idea to buy a ram4 card?
That depends on your needs - but I think you can't go wrong in getting one 8)
My (key related) gear (in alphabetical order):
Kawai: K1 II
Korg: M1 (up'd to EX, w/ 'Cool Blue'), M1REX (w/ 'Cool Blue'), Poly-800
Roland: D-50, D-110, D-550, PG-1000
Yamaha: AW1600, DX7IID (w/ 'Cool Blue'), EX5R, RM50, RX5, SY99 (w/ 'Cool Blue'), TG500, TX-802, YMM2
Sector101: SYEMB05 (5x), SYEMB06 (3x), EXFLM2 (1kit), MCD Sweet16 (1x), WaveBlade 8MB Card (1x) & 1x Programmer Unit for WaveBlade


http://rescuer-uslar.de/
https://www.facebook.com/Rescuer.Uslar/
User avatar
Zonkyzonk
Member
Member
Posts: 16
Joined: Thu Oct 05, 2017 4:55 am
Canada

Re: Help with DX7 iiFD with E! Board

Unread post by Zonkyzonk » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:52 pm

Well... my needs are to not have to always transmit all the files from my computer to my dx7 ii. I mean, even the param and buffer edit... the Erams and the banks... in case my battery dies or that something goes wrong... yeah it's a good idea, but for now I want to circumvent the "everything is gone upon power off" issue without spending 5 minutes uploading files everytime...

Would a RAM4 cart solve the isse? Can it be used to reset everything and make my synth functional? How quick is it to load from it, i mean, all ssystem files?
User avatar
Miks
Specialist Moderator
Specialist Moderator
Posts: 1659
Joined: Fri Oct 31, 2008 1:00 am
Contact:
Germany

Re: Help with DX7 iiFD with E! Board

Unread post by Miks » Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:10 pm

Neither do I have an E! board nor a RAM card for my DX7II/D so I can only guess - the sounds and their relevant parameters should be stored on the cartridge if you save them there - don't know if there are a kind of global parameters that will be stored on the cartridge too - lets say something like velocity, AT, transpose etc. Maybe some other member with more insight will chime in to give some more information on this...

Please be aware that a RAM card also has a battery installed inside! IF you buy one its recommended to measure its voltage - and if its too low replace the battery BEFORE using the cartridge for storing your sounds! 8O
My (key related) gear (in alphabetical order):
Kawai: K1 II
Korg: M1 (up'd to EX, w/ 'Cool Blue'), M1REX (w/ 'Cool Blue'), Poly-800
Roland: D-50, D-110, D-550, PG-1000
Yamaha: AW1600, DX7IID (w/ 'Cool Blue'), EX5R, RM50, RX5, SY99 (w/ 'Cool Blue'), TG500, TX-802, YMM2
Sector101: SYEMB05 (5x), SYEMB06 (3x), EXFLM2 (1kit), MCD Sweet16 (1x), WaveBlade 8MB Card (1x) & 1x Programmer Unit for WaveBlade


http://rescuer-uslar.de/
https://www.facebook.com/Rescuer.Uslar/
Post Reply

Return to “Yamaha DX & TX Forum”