SY22 Voice and Full Dump-Help Please!!

Covering the SY22 to SY55 and TG Modules.

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sy22freak
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SY22 Voice and Full Dump-Help Please!!

Unread post by sy22freak » Fri Jan 31, 2014 1:06 pm

Hello All,

First time to post, so please let me know if anything is outside forum rules!

I'm a keen Yamaha SY22 user and have finally gotten around to backing up custom patches. However, I'm having some difficulty with it and would really appreciate some advice.

When I dump a single voice from the SY22 to the PC, the average file size is around 900 bytes and a full dump is around 60KB. These files will not then transfer from the PC to the SY22. After much searching on the net, I found the following info: required file length 38306 bytes for full dump, 592 for single voice. (http://www.wolzow.com/analog/sy22-syxview.htm)

So clearly my dump file sizes are too large. I have checked the file size of other files from the net and sure enough they comply with the file size limits. They also successfully load onto the SY22.

Hope fully someone here has been there already.

Thanks in advance folks
sy22freak

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parametric
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Re: SY22 Voice and Full Dump-Help Please!!

Unread post by parametric » Fri Jan 31, 2014 6:01 pm

Hi sy22freak, and welcome to the forums.

I'm not familiar with the SY22 per se, but did enjoy playing one years ago a few times - Nice little board with a huge sound and considerable possibilities with that vector control . . . .

There seems to be little wrong with what you are doing - as you have successfully loaded 3rd party files, so I guess something is not right with the CREATION of your own files.

Often with older synths and newer computers, the synth chokes because the data is presented too fast by the more modern (faster) computer.

What SW are you using to do the midi dumps/uploads?

I don't think this is your problem - as you have loaded files successfully.

Check your naming convention . . . .

Many older synths will only understand the old naming convention xxxxxxxx.yyy where x= uppercase filename and y=uppercase extension . . .

This came from DOS, with no spaces allowed, together with other "reserved" characters, and importantly NO LOWER CASE.

We tend to forget this, so far down the road from DOS . . . . .

Just a thought

parametric
Alesis Fusion 8SSD AND 6SSD - BOTH are 384Mb/120Gb SSD/Akai ADVANCE61/Yamaha MOXF6/1024Mb Flash Ram/Yamaha SY85/8.5mb vol/1024k non-vol/DX21/Roland MT32/Bachmann double overstrung Baby Grand Piano/Win10 Pro/Ubuntu MATE 15.0.4/iBook G4/Mac OS 10.4.6/ProTools 7.4/MBox2/M-Audio 24/96 Sector101 2x SYEMB06 / 4 x EXM-E3 128MB DRAM Module
BRAND NEW DSDD (720k) FLOPPY DISKS FOR SALE - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=9217

Watch out now! take care, BEWARE of the greedy leaders! They'll take you where you should not go - (George Harrison)

IT'S TRUE - "MONEY TALKS" - TO ME, IT MOSTLY SAYS "GOODBYE" ;-)
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sy22freak
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Re: SY22 Voice and Full Dump-Help Please!!

Unread post by sy22freak » Fri Jan 31, 2014 10:26 pm

Hi Parametric,

Thanks for your reply. Yes it's a big sounding synth with lots of room for editing and still going strong! I wasn't aware of the naming convention but I will now gladly take your advice and dump the files again with correct names.

I used Bome's SendSX to transfer the data. It was very straightforward transferring patches to the SY22 and a Korg MS2000BR.

Thanks again
sy22freak

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Re: SY22 Voice and Full Dump-Help Please!!

Unread post by parametric » Sat Feb 01, 2014 1:34 am

The naming thing (8.3 - 8 character NAME, can be less but not more than 8 ) might not be the only reason for your difficulty.

Its just the one I remembered :D

There are others in here who perhaps can remember some of the others . . .

lets hope its the one . . .

parametric
Alesis Fusion 8SSD AND 6SSD - BOTH are 384Mb/120Gb SSD/Akai ADVANCE61/Yamaha MOXF6/1024Mb Flash Ram/Yamaha SY85/8.5mb vol/1024k non-vol/DX21/Roland MT32/Bachmann double overstrung Baby Grand Piano/Win10 Pro/Ubuntu MATE 15.0.4/iBook G4/Mac OS 10.4.6/ProTools 7.4/MBox2/M-Audio 24/96 Sector101 2x SYEMB06 / 4 x EXM-E3 128MB DRAM Module
BRAND NEW DSDD (720k) FLOPPY DISKS FOR SALE - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=9217

Watch out now! take care, BEWARE of the greedy leaders! They'll take you where you should not go - (George Harrison)

IT'S TRUE - "MONEY TALKS" - TO ME, IT MOSTLY SAYS "GOODBYE" ;-)
http://www.chrisnmiller.co.uk/Chris

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Re: SY22 Voice and Full Dump-Help Please!!

Unread post by mscott » Sat Feb 01, 2014 3:47 am

Try a program called SY-Edit for "getting" the patch from the synth.
I've never had any issues using that program. The most stable program I have used for any synth
but ...... it wont work with USB midi. plus you have onscreen graphical editing :-)

I've used Send SX with same results as you mention I found a lot of patches off the net are corrupt also.
I found the best results with SendSX is getting the patch from synth via pc rather than
manually transmit from synth. however I am using old sound cards on fast motherboards.

modern integrated sound cards (if they still have the 15pin d-sub port and some USB midis (as parametric mentioned)
send data to fast for old gear to handle.
midi data speed about 33kbs, old gear from the 80's and 90's cant handle anything faster.
(not bad considering dial up modems back then were only .3kbs)
If the data is corrupt or too fast SY22/35 shows illegal on the screen.

sometimes if there is any interruption to the data flow you'll get a corrupted dump.
Keep running background services to a minimum.

filenames for dos - anything up to 8 characters x anything up to 3 characters.
any filename that is longer, dos truncates filenames to the first six characters and ~1
so a fileneme in XP that reads SY-22Full Backup.syx will be in dos SY22-F~1.syx
modern software doesn't do this ie SendSX
Yes all uppercase, however if your in a pure dos environment doesn't matter if you enter
filenames in lower case, dos saves it in uppercase, but, has to be dos pre XP though.
Yamaha: SY35, SY77, TX7, PSR 4600
Roland: Juno106, D110, MC307, MKB200 (x2)
Kawai: XD5
Korg: Poly800Mk2
Casio: CZ1000, CZ5000, FZ-1
E-MU: ESI 2000
Digitech studio 400
Alesis SR-16
Boss Dr550mk2
Modded SX Bass, fat wires, Dimarzio DP250 pickups, Ernie Ball strings

MIA: DX7, AX80

sy22freak
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Re: SY22 Voice and Full Dump-Help Please!!

Unread post by sy22freak » Sat Feb 01, 2014 12:56 pm

Hi Folks,

Thanks for your responses.

I tried dumping again from the SY22 to the PC with the correct naming convention. Again, everything looked ok until I attempted to send the files from the PC to the SY22 and again no response from the synth. When transferring a known good file to the synth the screen displays the message 'Bulk Receiving...' but if I then dump that same file to the PC and attempt to the send it back to the synth the screen does not change and the patch is not loaded.

Also tried changing buffer and speed settings(to and from synth) in Bome's SendSX and MIDI-OX but no luck.

MScott, I looked for the option in SendSX to get the patch from the synth but could only find send or receive from PC options? Could you please tell me where I might find that option?

I've used SY-Edit for transferring patches to the SY22, it was wonderfully easy to do that! And of course came with a large library of patches too.
However, I have been unable to send a patch to it using the 'get voice from synth' option. I also tried loading patches into SY-Edit(my own apparently corrupt patches and other known good patches) but without success. Now using Windows7 but had the same experience with XP.

By the way, I'm using a ESP1010e soundcard, midi to midi..

Thanks again for your patience, I appreciate the help
sy22freak

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Re: SY22 Voice and Full Dump-Help Please!!

Unread post by mscott » Sat Feb 01, 2014 1:47 pm

I'll make another post later about how i dump patches .. I'll dig out the patch disk .....
something else which is good also is a small program called C6 by elektron v1.4f
:)
Yamaha: SY35, SY77, TX7, PSR 4600
Roland: Juno106, D110, MC307, MKB200 (x2)
Kawai: XD5
Korg: Poly800Mk2
Casio: CZ1000, CZ5000, FZ-1
E-MU: ESI 2000
Digitech studio 400
Alesis SR-16
Boss Dr550mk2
Modded SX Bass, fat wires, Dimarzio DP250 pickups, Ernie Ball strings

MIA: DX7, AX80

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Re: SY22 Voice and Full Dump-Help Please!!

Unread post by parametric » Sat Feb 01, 2014 2:54 pm

sy22freak wrote:When transferring a known good file to the synth the screen displays the message 'Bulk Receiving...' but if I then dump that same file to the PC and attempt to the send it back to the synth the screen does not change and the patch is not loaded.
Venturing into areas I'm not experienced in . . . . .

The file may be being altered somehow, somewhere in its journey described above . . . .

The file(s) you describe are supposedly actually the same file . . .

It might be worth viewing, in a Hex viewer:

The file on your PC, fresh from download . . .

The (same) file having been dumped from the SY back to the PC

See if there are any differences - particularly in the header info (as described on the site you linked in your first post).

Maybe the Manufacturer ID or file-type ID have been scrambled - making it invisible when offered back to the SY?

parametric
Alesis Fusion 8SSD AND 6SSD - BOTH are 384Mb/120Gb SSD/Akai ADVANCE61/Yamaha MOXF6/1024Mb Flash Ram/Yamaha SY85/8.5mb vol/1024k non-vol/DX21/Roland MT32/Bachmann double overstrung Baby Grand Piano/Win10 Pro/Ubuntu MATE 15.0.4/iBook G4/Mac OS 10.4.6/ProTools 7.4/MBox2/M-Audio 24/96 Sector101 2x SYEMB06 / 4 x EXM-E3 128MB DRAM Module
BRAND NEW DSDD (720k) FLOPPY DISKS FOR SALE - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=9217

Watch out now! take care, BEWARE of the greedy leaders! They'll take you where you should not go - (George Harrison)

IT'S TRUE - "MONEY TALKS" - TO ME, IT MOSTLY SAYS "GOODBYE" ;-)
http://www.chrisnmiller.co.uk/Chris

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Re: SY22 Voice and Full Dump-Help Please!!

Unread post by mscott » Sat Feb 01, 2014 2:56 pm

My apologies for one error, get patch from synth,
I did that with SYedit confused my self with Sendsx,
however I have have a little play with 3 programs and this is what I did
on my SY35

I'm using a soundblaster live CT-4870 with a 20 year old roland MPU-401 midi out
on XP SP2 heavily tweaked and stripped, looking like win98.

SendSX

1. on synth set midi TX/RX to CH 1
2. in SendSX options/settings drop speed to 1.29KBS
3. uncheck all options for midi input
4. load patch and send from pc
5. send patch from synth, save, clear in and out on sendsx and send back to synth

C6
on synth set midi TX/RX to CH 1
on pc Load good patch, then send to synth
clear, then send patch from synth save and send back

And the same steps above I used in sy-edit no errors.

I have no experience with windows 7 (i have tried it) , perhaps someone could advise there.
Yamaha: SY35, SY77, TX7, PSR 4600
Roland: Juno106, D110, MC307, MKB200 (x2)
Kawai: XD5
Korg: Poly800Mk2
Casio: CZ1000, CZ5000, FZ-1
E-MU: ESI 2000
Digitech studio 400
Alesis SR-16
Boss Dr550mk2
Modded SX Bass, fat wires, Dimarzio DP250 pickups, Ernie Ball strings

MIA: DX7, AX80

sy22freak
Posts: 8
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Re: SY22 Voice and Full Dump-Help Please!!

Unread post by sy22freak » Sat Feb 01, 2014 6:45 pm

Hello again,

Thanks for your suggestions yet again!

I tried transferring a patch both ways on C6, no problems sending to synth but no file received from synth to PC? Very strange, similar experience to SY-Edit.

Also tried sending and receiving on SendSX. No trouble sending a file to the synth. As before, patch appears to be sent from synth to PC but when I attempt to transfer the patch back to the synth, nothing happens. I compared the HEX code in the original patch to the same patch returned from the synth, they are VERY different! According to SendSX, 592 bytes sent successfully to the synth but just 19 bytes received successfully from synth.

Don't know if this makes sense but here goes! I have looked at the HEX code of the returned file on seperate occasions and different code was returned each time(i.e. the returned code was different to the next set of returned code).

Maybe it's time to start learning how this code is written! Anyway, thanks again for the help so far,

The Sysex file sent to the SY22 successfully:
F0 43 00 7E 04 48 50 4B 20 20 32 32 30 33 41 45 01 25 7A 53 79 6E 57 69 6E 64 20 00 02 00 00 00 03 00 00 00 00 3E 01 74 01 00 30 00 00 00 00 00 00 02 0A 00 00 01 00 3F 00 40 00 0F 7F 00 00 00 01 0F 00 00 01 00 7F 00 00 00 00 00 00 03 07 00 2B 08 04 00 73 00 24 00 3F 15 3F 16 7F 16 7F 00 01 11 00 00 01 00 1E 01 40 00 19 7F 00 00 00 50 01 74 03 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 02 00 00 00 01 00 3F 01 50 00 17 7F 00 7F 00 00 4D 00 00 02 00 34 00 00 00 00 00 00 02 04 00 42 08 30 00 70 01 3F 00 20 0A 00 06 06 10 60 00 01 05 00 00 01 01 3F 00 40 00 10 7F 00 00 00 08 08 00 01 3E 19 00 00 3E 1A 00 00 3E 24 00 00 3E 29 00 00 3E 2D 00 00 3E 2F 00 00 3E 30 00 00 3E 31 00 00 3E 33 00 00 3E 34 00 00 3E 35 00 00 3E 36 00 00 3C 37 00 00 3A 38 00 00 37 38 00 00 32 38 00 00 30 38 00 00 2D 38 00 00 28 38 00 00 25 37 00 00 20 36 00 00 1E 34 00 00 1B 33 00 00 18 32 00 00 15 2F 00 00 13 2D 00 00 13 2C 00 00 12 2A 00 00 12 28 00 00 12 27 00 00 12 26 00 00 12 25 00 00 12 23 00 01 12 22 00 00 12 20 00 00 12 1F 00 00 12 1E 00 00 12 1C 00 00 13 1C 00 00 16 1B 00 00 1A 1B 00 00 1D 1B 00 00 21 1B 00 00 26 1C 00 00 29 1D 00 00 2C 1F 00 00 2E 1F 00 00 2F 21 00 00 31 21 01 7F 32 22 00 00 2A 1E 00 00 29 1D 00 00 26 1D 00 00 25 1D 00 00 22 1D 00 00 20 1E 00 00 1F 20 00 00 20 23 00 00 27 24 00 00 2E 24 00 00 31 24 00 00 31 20 00 00 31 1D 00 00 2E 1C 00 00 2B 1B 00 00 27 1A 00 00 24 18 00 00 22 17 00 00 22 18 00 00 21 1A 00 00 1F 1C 00 00 1B 1E 00 00 1A 1F 00 00 18 20 00 00 1E 20 00 00 24 20 00 00 2A 20 00 00 2D 20 00 00 2E 20 00 00 2D 21 00 00 2A 21 00 00 28 20 00 00 27 1F 00 00 25 1E 00 00 21 1E 00 00 1F 1E 00 00 21 1E 00 00 27 1E 00 01 2A 1F 00 00 28 1F 00 00 24 1F 00 00 23 1D 00 00 23 1C 00 00 23 1A 00 00 24 19 00 00 2A 1A 00 00 2C 1C 00 04 2C 1F 00 01 32 1F 01 7E 31 20 00 00 55 4E F7

The same patch returned from the SY22 to the PC:
F0 43 00 7E 04 48
A0 4B 20
A0 40 32
A0 32 60
A0 33 41
A0 45 02
A0 25 7A
A0 53 79
A0 6E 57
A0 69 6E
A0 64 20
A0 00 02
A0 00 00
A0 00 03
A0 00 00
A0 00 00
A0 3E 02
A0 74 01
A0 00 60
A0 00 00
A0 00 00
A0 00 00
A0 02 0A
A0 00 00
A0 01 00
A0 3F 00
A0 40 00
A0 0F 7F
A0 00 00
A0 00 02
A0 0F 00
A0 00 01
A0 00 7F
A0 00 00
A0 00 00
A0 00 00
A0 03 07
A0 00 2B
A0 08 04
A0 00 73
A0 00 24
A0 00 3F
A0 15 3F
A0 16 59
A0 7F 00
A0 01 22
A0 00 00
A0 02 00
A0 1E 01
A0 40 00
A0 19 01
A0 00 00
A0 50 01
A0 74 03
A0 00 00
A0 00 00
A0 00 00
A0 00 00
A0 02 00
A0 00 00
A0 01 00
A0 3F 01
A0 50 00
A0 17 01
A0 7F 00
A0 00 4D
A0 00 00
A0 02 00
A0 34 00
A0 00 00
A0 00 00
A0 00 02
A0 04 00
84 08 30
84 00 70
84 01 3F
84 00 40
84 0A 00
84 06 06
84 10 60
84 00 01
84 05 00
84 00 02
84 01 3F
84 00 40
84 00 20
84 7F 00
84 00 00
84 08 08
84 00 01
84 3E 32
84 00 00
84 3E 1A
84 00 00
84 3E 24
84 00 00
84 3E 52
84 00 00
84 3E 2D
84 00 00
84 3E 5E
84 00 00
84 3E 30
84 00 00
84 7C 31
84 00 00
84 3E 33
84 00 00
84 3E 34
84 00 00
84 7C 35
84 00 00
84 3E 36
84 00 00
84 3C 6E
84 00 00
84 3A 38
84 00 00
84 37 38
84 00 00
84 32 38
84 00 00
84 30 38
84 00 00
84 5A 38
84 00 00
84 28 38
84 00 00
84 4A 37
84 00 00
84 20 36
84 00 00
84 1E 34
84 00 00
84 1B 66
84 00 00
84 18 64
84 00 00
84 15 5E
84 00 00
84 13 5A
84 00 00
84 26 2C
84 00 00
84 12 2A
84 00 00
84 12 28
84 00 00
84 12 27
84 00 00
84 12 26
84 00 00
84 12 4A
84 00 00
84 12 23
84 00 02
84 12 22
84 00 00
84 12 20
84 00 00
84 12 1F
84 00 00
84 12 1E
84 00 00
84 12 1C
84 00 00
84 13 38
84 00 00
84 2C 1B
84 00 00
84 1A 1B
84 00 00
84 1D 1B
84 00 00
84 21 1B
84 00 00
84 26 1C
84 00 00
84 29 1D
84 00 00
84 2C 3E
84 00 00
84 5C 1F
84 00 00
84 2F 21
84 00 00
84 31 21
84 01 7F
84 32 22
84 00 00
84 2A 1E
84 00 00
84 29 1D
84 00 00
84 26 3A
84 00 00
84 25 1D
84 00 00
84 22 1D
84 00 00
84 20 1E
84 00 00
84 1F 20
84 00 00
84 20 46
84 00 00
84 4E 24
84 00 00
84 5C 24
84 00 00
84 31 24
84 00 00
84 31 20
84 00 00
84 31 1D
84 00 00
84 2E 1C
84 00 00
84 2B 1B
84 00 00
84 27 1A
84 00 00
84 24 18
84 00 00
84 22 17
84 00 00
84 44 18
84 00 00
84 21 1A
84 00 00
84 1F 1C
84 00 00
84 36 1E
84 00 00
84 1A 1F
84 00 00
84 18 20
84 00 00
84 1E 20
84 00 00
84 24 20
84 00 00
84 2A 20
84 00 00
84 2D 20
84 00 00
84 5C 20
84 00 00
84 2D 42
84 00 00
84 2A 42
84 00 00
84 28 20
84 00 00
84 27 1F
84 00 00
84 25 1E
84 00 00
84 21 1E
84 00 00
84 1F 1E
84 00 00
84 21 3C
84 00 00
84 27 3C
84 00 01
84 2A 1F
84 00 00
84 28 1F
84 00 00
84 24 1F
84 00 00
84 46 1D
84 00 00
84 23 1C
84 00 00
84 23 1A
84 00 00
84 48 19
84 00 00
84 2A 1A
84 00 00
84 2C 1C
84 00 04
84 2C 3E
84 00 01
84 32 1F
84 02 7E
84 62 20
84 00 00
AA 4E F7
sy22freak

sy22freak
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Re: SY22 Voice and Full Dump-Help Please!!

Unread post by sy22freak » Sat Feb 01, 2014 8:06 pm

Not sure where is best to post this but I've collected quite a few SY22 patches from various places on the net. Perhaps they may be of use to someone here? Could I mail to a moderator or share in some other way? I think they may also work with SY35 and TG33 but don't have either so can't test. I've transferred many of them to the SY22 in the past and most worked fine.

Mods: Please move if there is a more appropriate place on the forum, thanks.
sy22freak

mscott
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Re: SY22 Voice and Full Dump-Help Please!!

Unread post by mscott » Sun Feb 02, 2014 3:02 am

Have you tried moving the pitchbend up and down while sending from the synth?
I had some troubles in the past with getting patches from synths and sending would stall.
(especially on Casio cz's sometimes on sy35)
when i move the pitch bend up and down a bit the dump completes, almost like pushing the data out.
Or try a factory reset on the sy22..

Do you have any other gear to test sends and receives with? to see if the same thing happens?
Yamaha: SY35, SY77, TX7, PSR 4600
Roland: Juno106, D110, MC307, MKB200 (x2)
Kawai: XD5
Korg: Poly800Mk2
Casio: CZ1000, CZ5000, FZ-1
E-MU: ESI 2000
Digitech studio 400
Alesis SR-16
Boss Dr550mk2
Modded SX Bass, fat wires, Dimarzio DP250 pickups, Ernie Ball strings

MIA: DX7, AX80

sy22freak
Posts: 8
Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2012 4:31 pm

Re: SY22 Voice and Full Dump-Help Please!!

Unread post by sy22freak » Sun Feb 02, 2014 5:47 pm

Hi MScott,

Thanks for your suggestions. I tried the factory reset on the SY22. The reset itself was successful but files transferred back to the PC were still funny. By the way I have a second SY22(no, it's not a fetish!) and same result there.

Good idea to try more equipment. I tried a Korg MS2000 and no problem transferring files to the unit but when I dumped files to the PC and tried to send them back, no success. In the HEX editor there was the same anomaly between the original file and file sent to the PC.

I also tried a cheap USB-MIDI converter and had exactly the same results as the soundcard.

Makes me wonder about settings in the PC itself..now that could be a real pain!

Of course I may have to delve further into trying to understand HEX code as the answer may well be there
sy22freak

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Sonus
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Re: SY22 Voice and Full Dump-Help Please!!

Unread post by Sonus » Sun Feb 02, 2014 7:59 pm

Deleted post
Last edited by Sonus on Sun Nov 29, 2015 3:22 pm, edited 3 times in total.

sy22freak
Posts: 8
Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2012 4:31 pm

Re: SY22 Voice and Full Dump-Help Please!!

Unread post by sy22freak » Sun Feb 02, 2014 9:02 pm

Hi Sonus,

Thanks for your help.

I tested MIDI with the program and it reported no problems! This is turning out to be quite the mystery
sy22freak

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