Connect multiple TG77

Yamaha SY77 is a 16 voice multitimbral music workstation first produced by Yamaha Corporation in 1989. The SY77 is a synthesizer whose architecture combines AFM (Advanced Frequency Modulation) synthesis, AWM2 (Advanced Wave Memory 2) for ROM-borne sample-based synthesis, and the combination of these two methods christened Realtime Convolution and Modulation Synthesis (RCM).

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Re: Connect multiple TG77

Unread post by Derek » Thu May 01, 2014 7:32 pm

Clyde wrote:I would agree Derek with the exception that if you have several midi thrus in the chain, the last unit or two in the chain will have perceptible latency, if you're only dealing with 2-3 thrus (maybe even 4), then not a big deal.
Clyde
Have you actually experienced that, Clyde?

I've never spotted any latency in my chain, and as mentioned if MIDI Thu is only an optically isolated and buffered copy of the original, you shouldn't notice any delay even if you chained many, many of units together.

Looking at the following schematic as an example of a simple MIDI Thru - I'm not vouching for it or saying how well it works, it's one I found quickly on the net as is the sort of simplicity that I would expect: an opto isolator and a buffer (two inverting ones in this case to get a non-inverted signal).

http://m.bareille.free.fr/midithrubox/midithrubox.htm

A 6N135 optocoupler has a delay of 1.5uS. The two Schmitt inverters in circuit have a propagation delay of 15nS or 0.015us or 0.03uS in total, so that gives a total circuit delay of 1.53uS! You'd have to be up with the larks to spot that sort of delay even if chained ten times. :)
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Re: Connect multiple TG77

Unread post by tux » Thu May 01, 2014 11:40 pm

Derek, as far as I can tell all the devices (except the TG77) in your MIDI chain are relatively new so they should have fast opto isolators. If your chain consisted of '80s synths your experience would probably be quite different.
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Re: Connect multiple TG77

Unread post by Clyde » Thu May 01, 2014 11:44 pm

Derek, I appreciate your research and comments, if I was going strictly by specs I would have to agree with you. The thing is, we live in the real world where quite often things do not meet spec. When I had 8 synths chained back in the day (late '80s), there were often perceptible delays or latency issues. That was one of the reasons I added an MJC8 to my setup so there would only be one thru between the master and every other synth. I also think that if a setup works well for you or me, then we can forget about specs and such and just enjoy the results.
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Edit: The synths I was chaining back then: DX7IIFD w/E! was the controller/master, another DX7IIFD, two TX81Zs, TX802, Casio CZ101, Roland MKS50, Roland D550.
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Re: Connect multiple TG77

Unread post by Derek » Sat May 03, 2014 9:39 am

It must be that some units then are actually receiving the data first, buffering/doing something to it and then re transmitting it, which would add latency. It's not the way it should be done of course! :)
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Re: Connect multiple TG77

Unread post by db7 » Sat May 03, 2014 9:51 am

I guess it’s more likely they have old and bad optical components in the pass-thru circuit, as tux alluded.

Well, I hope, because processing the thru data first for no reason would be really silly! ;)
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Re: Connect multiple TG77

Unread post by Derek » Sat May 03, 2014 10:15 am

Opto isolators have a very deterministic and very small latency which is three orders of magnitude below the sorts of delays that humans can perceive. So any latency that has been experienced by Clyde and others must be due to something else. I can't think of a failure mode in an opto isolator which would add three orders of magnitude of latency. All they are is an LED and photosensitive transistor in one sealed package. You can't really get much simpler.

Receiving the data and processing it may not be that silly if the design intention is for the Thru to act as a MIDI Merge as well, although you'd like to think the processing would be pretty snappy! Whilst it's not on the THRU port, my EX5 (as mentioned above) has a setting to to echo the MIDI A in data back on MIDI A out, whilst merging it with the EX5's own MIDI data and my Novation Remote61 has the same function as well. I use those functions so that I have three MIDI controllers (foot controller and two keyboards) all on the same line, and there is no perceptible latency in doing that.
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Re: Connect multiple TG77

Unread post by db7 » Sat May 03, 2014 10:26 am

Assuming that to be true (which it is from first principles, if not always the reality of manufacturing ;)), I guess we have to go back to the claims at the page posted by tux that poor old components could eventually drop the signal altogether? Do you think those are relevant at all? Granted, not to the overall latency that is apparently being claimed here.

Nice point about MIDI merge, which is a pretty great feature to have available. And I’ve been very interested to read about your successful experiences with that impressive chain of synths! :D
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Re: Connect multiple TG77

Unread post by Clyde » Sun May 04, 2014 3:12 am

If you are talking about "old components" having issues due to their age, then that was not an issue in my case, all of the synths I was chaining were less than three years old (and some were brand new), it was simply an issue of the last few synths in the chain experiencing latency/delay due to passing thru several midi thrus. Spec does not always equal real time performance, rtp can be either better than or worse than rtp, most often worse.
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Re: Connect multiple TG77

Unread post by mikako » Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:24 pm

Hello. Total noob here. I have a question in regard to this topic. I wanted to extend the polyphony so now I have two TG77s. What is the right way to connect them with my keyboard? And how will i be able to hear all 32 notes if im connected with my headphones to only one module?
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Re: Connect multiple TG77

Unread post by Derek » Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:10 pm

Hello and welcome

In Utility/MIDI/Channel Set there is an option called Note On/Off which by default is set to ALL

If you set both TG77s to the same MIDI receive channel (and ensure they get the same MIDI signal) and set one TG77 to Note On/Off to ODD and the other to EVEN then you will share the polyphony across them. Of course you need the same patch data in them and have the same patches selected.

In terms of hearing the combined result then you will not be able to do that via one headphone output. You'll have to feed the outputs of both TG77s into a mixer and listen to the combined mix.
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Re: Connect multiple TG77

Unread post by mikako » Thu Apr 12, 2018 4:28 pm

Thank you. But what about midi cables? Is it.. Controller IN -> Controller OUT -> IN (TG77) -> THROUGH (TG77) -> IN (TG77/2) ?
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Re: Connect multiple TG77

Unread post by Derek » Thu Apr 12, 2018 6:03 pm

Yes, something like that for the MIDI would work.
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Re: Connect multiple TG77

Unread post by Rara » Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:04 am

I've been reading this with some interest ( i know it's old .... ), especially when
someone mentioned old 80's gear being slow with the midi thru etc ..
I can vouch for the latency in daisy chaining gear,
once I had 'part' of my setup like this:-

pc out ----> md80 thru expander ---> D110 ...> SR-16 ---> DR550mk2
all with 6 foot cables, there was still auble delay when I used a short 1ft cable from
the SR-16 to dr550-mk2

The latency on the boss drum machine was quite noticeable, a definite da dum, da dum, da dum,
between the two drum machines with a bass drum for example
If i do the same thing with say md80 thru to Juno106 to cz-5000 to poly 800 then there is some real latency.

Age can certainly a factor
Rara.
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Re: Connect multiple TG77

Unread post by Derek » Wed Apr 18, 2018 7:26 pm

As I said many times, noticeable latency should not happen when daisy chaining if all the MIDI Through in a unit is is an optically isolated facsimile at hardware level of the MIDI in. You will have circuit latency in the order of tens of nano seconds at worst, so a few microseconds across many units, and your sense of timing would need to be really sharp to notice that.

In my old rig, I had FC300->EX5->Novation->Motif Rack->Nord G2->FS1r->A4000->PC running NI B4II and I never noticed any latency.

Indeed the EX5 and Novation were not hardware buffered clones in my rig as they merged their MIDI INs with their own data on MIDI OUT which implies some form of processing, and I still noticed no latency when playing the B4II. So either there was no issue, or my timing perception is lousy..... ;)
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