TG77 Patch Change without "return / quit / save" Prompts

Yamaha SY77 is a 16 voice multitimbral music workstation first produced by Yamaha Corporation in 1989. The SY77 is a synthesizer whose architecture combines AFM (Advanced Frequency Modulation) synthesis, AWM2 (Advanced Wave Memory 2) for ROM-borne sample-based synthesis, and the combination of these two methods christened Realtime Convolution and Modulation Synthesis (RCM).

Moderators: Derek, parametric, Saul

User avatar United States of America
EricaEsoMusic
Member
Member
Posts: 17
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:49 pm
Contact:

TG77 Patch Change without "return / quit / save" Prompts

Unread post by EricaEsoMusic » Fri Nov 01, 2019 2:15 am

Hello,

I'm working on a TG77 composition that makes use of 3 consecutive singe voice/patches that are being manipulated with SysEx commands live. Because I'm changing various parameters in the patch in edit mode, whenever I need to change the patch I have to cycle through the prompts pressing exit a few times then f7 to confirm that I don't want to save the patch. I then can press patch increase and get to the next patch in the composition.

Is there a way to change patches without having to respond to the prompt to "return, quit or save"?

Thanks for the help
-Weston
Advertisement
1000 Free EDM Samples
User avatar South Africa
jnm2
Member
Member
Posts: 71
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:15 am

Re: TG77 Patch Change without "return / quit / save" Prompts

Unread post by jnm2 » Fri Nov 01, 2019 10:35 am

I believe if you don't save the editings you loose them, when going to a next voice.
Yet, all buttons on the front panel can also be manipulated with a sysex command, so ... maybe that way.

A nice tool that you can use if needed, is this :
http://www.vdvb.be/AC_Data/Midi%20Connect%20Check.zip
User avatar United States of America
EricaEsoMusic
Member
Member
Posts: 17
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:49 pm
Contact:

Re: TG77 Patch Change without "return / quit / save" Prompts

Unread post by EricaEsoMusic » Fri Nov 01, 2019 4:48 pm

hi and thanks for your reply,

losing the edits are no problem. I have no need to save when I change patches.

Can you tell me more about the program you suggested downloading?

Typically, to find a SysEx code to program into my keyboard, i change the param manually on the TG while connected to MidiOX and whatever the code is, I put into my KB. But changing a patch and pressing f7 don't send sysex messages.

I've only used sysex for internal editing params never something like patch change.
User avatar Wales
Derek
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 4897
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2007 1:00 am
Contact:

Re: TG77 Patch Change without "return / quit / save" Prompts

Unread post by Derek » Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:48 am

Hi,

If you don't already have it, grab a copy of the TG77 MIDI Data Manual.

The remote switch commands are on Page 12, <TABLE 1-16>

EXIT is F0 43 10 34 0D 00 00 18 00 40 F7

QUIT (F7 soft key) is F0 43 10 34 0D 00 00 16 00 40 F7

You may need to experiment with sending the remote switch command as an ON Value (40-7F) and then an OFF value (00-3F), but hopefully you can just send ON values.

This should hopefully work for you. I do a similar thing in ex.factory, and use the remote switch commands to simulate a voice store operation to work around the EX5 SYSEX MIDI bugs that corrupt data when storing to memory. But SYSYEX to the edit buffer is fine. So I send a voice to the edit buffer and "remotely press the front panel buttons" by using Remote Switch SYSEX commands to store the voice.

You should be able to use whatever application you are already sending your SYSEX in if you can create your own messages, and you can experiment with these commands in MIDIOX of course.

Let us know how you get on.
Regards
Derek Cook

http://www.carregddu.co.uk
http://www.echoes-music.co.uk
http://www.xfactory-librarians.co.uk
http://www.ex5tech.co.uk
User avatar South Africa
jnm2
Member
Member
Posts: 71
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:15 am

Re: TG77 Patch Change without "return / quit / save" Prompts

Unread post by jnm2 » Sat Nov 02, 2019 10:52 am

EricaEsoMusic wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 4:48 pm
hi and thanks for your reply,

Can you tell me more about the program you suggested downloading?

Typically, to find a SysEx code to program into my keyboard, i change the param manually on the TG while connected to MidiOX and whatever the code is, I put into my KB. But changing a patch and pressing f7 don't send sysex messages.

I've only used sysex for internal editing params never something like patch change.
Hi, EricaEsoMusic.
I haven't made an English translationn yet, but google can help with that, here some views and helpfile :
http://www.vdvb.be/MCC/Help%20info%20NL.htm
The program can (among other) send midi (sysex) data wich you can simply record and also transform into a midi file.
Each record can be send afterwords with a simple click.
The midi commands and sysex strings itself must be setup in a simple text-file (some included in the zip file).
So this : "Typically, to find a SysEx code to program into my keyboard, i change the param manually " will become a one time job an finished.

Greetings.
User avatar United States of America
EricaEsoMusic
Member
Member
Posts: 17
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:49 pm
Contact:

Re: TG77 Patch Change without "return / quit / save" Prompts

Unread post by EricaEsoMusic » Mon Nov 04, 2019 5:11 pm

Derek,

I'm proud to say (as SYSEX logic is relatively new to me) that before I received your reply, I dove into the MIDI Data sheet and came to the same conclusions you just suggested. Finally feeling like the perks of digging into these machines thru SYSEX is beyond worth it. It definitely solved the problem for my performance. I didn't want to be onstage and mistakenly press save instead of quit. That would seriously mess things up.

I set the last value in the SYSEX string to 40 and didn't need to bother with the Off signal.

Jnm2,

Sounds like a cool program. If you ever get around to some english instructions, please send it my way.

Thanks everyone
-weston
User avatar Wales
Derek
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 4897
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2007 1:00 am
Contact:

Re: TG77 Patch Change without "return / quit / save" Prompts

Unread post by Derek » Mon Nov 04, 2019 8:38 pm

EricaEsoMusic wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 5:11 pm
Derek,

I'm proud to say (as SYSEX logic is relatively new to me) that before I received your reply, I dove into the MIDI Data sheet and came to the same conclusions you just suggested. Finally feeling like the perks of digging into these machines thru SYSEX is beyond worth it. It definitely solved the problem for my performance. I didn't want to be onstage and mistakenly press save instead of quit. That would seriously mess things up.

I set the last value in the SYSEX string to 40 and didn't need to bother with the Off signal.
Hi,

I am glad it works for you. If you don't want to mess things up, it is also probably best to take a back up which you can restore when needed (I personally have learnt the hard way at ggs about the perils of not having a backup with you and the means to restore it! 8O 8O). You can use MIDIOX to do that for free, or you can look at paid for applications like SY Manager or my sy.factory.
Regards
Derek Cook

http://www.carregddu.co.uk
http://www.echoes-music.co.uk
http://www.xfactory-librarians.co.uk
http://www.ex5tech.co.uk
User avatar United States of America
EricaEsoMusic
Member
Member
Posts: 17
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:49 pm
Contact:

Re: TG77 Patch Change without "return / quit / save" Prompts

Unread post by EricaEsoMusic » Tue Nov 05, 2019 1:32 am

What do you mean by "the hard way at ggs"?

Yes I save semi-regularly on MIDIOX and also have the DataBlade (tho I'd rather not gig with it cuz it's so fragile seeming)

Do you have any demo videos of how your sy program works?

Thanks
-w
User avatar Germany
Miks
Specialist Moderator
Specialist Moderator
Posts: 1993
Joined: Fri Oct 31, 2008 1:00 am

Re: TG77 Patch Change without "return / quit / save" Prompts

Unread post by Miks » Tue Nov 05, 2019 1:38 am

EricaEsoMusic wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 1:32 am
What do you mean by "the hard way at ggs"?
I think somehow an 'i' got lost - should surely read "the hard way at gigs" :wink:
My (key related) gear (in alphabetical order):
Ferrofish: B4000+
Kawai: K1 II
Korg: M1 (up'd to EX, w/ 'Cool Blue'), M1REX (w/ 'Cool Blue'), Poly-800
Roland: D-50, D-110, D-550, PG-1000
Yamaha: AW1600, DX7IID (w/ 'Cool Blue'), EX5R, RM50, RX5, SY99 (w/ 'Cool Blue'), TG500,
TX-802, YMM2
Sector101: SYEMB05 (5x), SYEMB06 (3x), EXFLM2 (1kit), MCD Sweet16 (1x), DataBlade32 (1x),
WaveBlade 8MB Card (1x) & 1x Programmer Unit for WaveBlade
User avatar South Africa
jnm2
Member
Member
Posts: 71
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:15 am

Re: TG77 Patch Change without "return / quit / save" Prompts

Unread post by jnm2 » Tue Nov 05, 2019 11:59 am

EricaEsoMusic wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 5:11 pm
Jnm2,

Sounds like a cool program. If you ever get around to some english instructions, please send it my way.
EricaEsoMusic first of all my program (Midi Connect Check = MCC) is free, so making a translation... you get it also for free with Google (for now). Explaining what and how MCC does/works, is realy childsplay. If you don't select a Midi-Output, you can try out everything to see what should happen (WYSIWYG). Once you select a Midi-Output it will happen (data will be send to the device connected, so then WYSIWYG + WYSIWYHear).

The very few things you don't see are some Drag & Drop functions to play Midi-files. But using that also is childsplay.
There are some complete examples of user-voice-files in this directory Midi Connect Check\Voice List, to use and see how things must become setup.
I made one more (partly) for the TG77 as you can see. Put it in that directory and start the program.
Click on the button 'Voices' and you'll see the TG77.

If people give me feedback (send Voice Lists or...), I might translate the manual.

TG77.zip
(920 Bytes) Downloaded 11 times
User avatar Wales
Derek
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 4897
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2007 1:00 am
Contact:

Re: TG77 Patch Change without "return / quit / save" Prompts

Unread post by Derek » Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:21 pm

Miks wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 1:38 am
EricaEsoMusic wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 1:32 am
What do you mean by "the hard way at ggs"?
I think somehow an 'i' got lost - should surely read "the hard way at gigs" :wink:
Yes, the i was AWOL and it is indeed Gigs.

So what I was referring to is quite a long story that I will try and summarise.

In Welsh Floyd we play to backing tracks (all the sound effects, a click to keep the drummer in time 8O ;) and background instruments) and have a synced DMX light show, all on a laptop using an excellent piece of software called Cantabile now at Version 3.

When this incident happened, though, it was at version 2 and it was not so good at coping with changes in computer configuration, like missing devices. Couple that to the fact that a lot of USB MIDI/Audio interfaces are still USB 2 and some do not like being plugged into USB 3 ports. And add to that the fact that my laptop this was running on has 1 USB 2 port and two USB 3 ports, and I need to plug in
  • USB Audio/MIDI interface (fussy about being in a USB 2 port, not USB 3)
  • DMX USB interface (not fussy)
  • MIDI only USB interface (not fussy)
So in setting up for this gig,
  • we were not given stage access until late, and we need three hours to set up and sound check in comfort (we are a big band with a lot of gear)
  • So we had to set up in a rush in two hours
  • In the rush I accidentally plugged in my Audio interface into a USB 3 port by mistake and didn't notice
  • Because the Audio interface was not liking USB 3, it caused problems with Cantabile 2
  • Because Cantabile 2 was bad at detecting problems like this, it was also upset and was causing me all sorts of problems
  • Whilst I tried to sort it, I screwed up the Cantabile 2 configuration for our set
  • That is when I realised that it is all very well taking computer and data backups, but they are no use to you when they are at home, 60 miles away, and you have an hour to go until gig start..... 8O 8O 8O 8O 8O 8O 8O - that was my hard lesson learnt....
  • Once I found the problem and got the Audio interface plugged into the right USB 2 port, I had a stressful hour reprogramming the Cantabile configuration for the show, and I finished with five minutes to spare, compared to it taking five minutes restoring from a backup
So, the lessons I learnt that night
  • If you use computers on stage, expect that shit will happen at some point and plan for it (and bearing in mind most keyboards these days are embedded computers). For each piece of kit, if you lose the config, how will you recover it?
  • Label all of your ports and cables, so it is easy to verify that you have plugged things in correctly
  • In fact I have gone one further, and now have just two cable looms that make cable setup and recovery easier
  • Have backups for all critical data (including what is in your synths) and a means to restore it if needed
That is a candid story, and a little embarrassing that I got into the situation, but ever since that gig, I have been prepared....
Regards
Derek Cook

http://www.carregddu.co.uk
http://www.echoes-music.co.uk
http://www.xfactory-librarians.co.uk
http://www.ex5tech.co.uk
User avatar United States of America
EricaEsoMusic
Member
Member
Posts: 17
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:49 pm
Contact:

Re: TG77 Patch Change without "return / quit / save" Prompts

Unread post by EricaEsoMusic » Wed Nov 06, 2019 3:19 am

yep. bound to happen. computers are risky on stage. I wish I could say that keeping everything hardware would ensure that everything runs smoothly, but it unfortunately isn't the case. have had lots of one time midi errors at gigs.

my decision to keep keep things hardware, is to keep my creative process somewhat removed from the same thing i email on. not that i think there's anything fundamentally wrong with computers in the creative process, it's just my personal associations.

obviously, the tg77 IS a computer. but having a unique interface, separate from one of a laptop, keeps things feeling fresh and less distracted for me.
User avatar Wales
Derek
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 4897
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2007 1:00 am
Contact:

Re: TG77 Patch Change without "return / quit / save" Prompts

Unread post by Derek » Wed Nov 06, 2019 11:53 am

Any gear is risky on stage. depending on the sort of gigs you do, you need to have a “what if” plan if anything goes down, and that was my lesson learnt.

I don’t think computers are particularly riskier compared with keyboards and other gear built for a specific (rather than generic) purpose which are enclosed eco systems, so less chance to screw them up yourself, but you can’t say it wouldn’t happen. And is a new computer with a good backup plan any riskier than using a 90s based module (for example) which is probably getting to the end of the reliability “bathtub” and you have an increasing failure risk of components failing? Obviously that is a big debate, but my point remains that if it is critical that you do your gig then be prepared :)

E.g. what if your TG77 battery suddenly gave up the ghost without warning (they can, or the battery monitor circuit might not be working) so you lost your voices, or you did accidentally save one of those patches. Do you have a means to get them back (e.g. SYSEX Dump and MIDIOX) so you can carry on? Do you carry some spare batteries?

Shortly after that experience of mine, the band got onto the small theatre circuit where people were paying to see a show, and failure of kit was no excuse not to carry on. So I went through every piece of kit I was using and considered what would happen if it was not working. For some things that led to spares (e.g. spare USB sound module as without that we were screwed). For the audio computer my “what if” was to have a hot spare configuration on our video laptop. So if the main audio computer went down, we would lose the video show, but we still had audio and the light show so we could do the show.

For my keyboards, I programmed some stock “emergency patches” in both. If one went down, I would lose the combined configuration I gig with, but I would have generic Organs, Pianos, Electric Pianos, Synths, Strings, Pads of different types programmed in both, along with some left hand, right hand splits. It would not sound as good as what it would if I had everything working, but it would get me through a show. External PSUs are easy to forget, so a couple of universal ones are in my emergency box along with lead testers, soldering iron, spare leads, basic tools, etc.

And of course the law of sod is that if you this prepared, nothing will go wrong, but if you are not..... Actually apart from that one bad experience, I’ve been lucky and my emergency box is usually used to bail out the other band members!

I know this has gone a little off topic, but I thought it worth mentioning as success is a poor tutor, but failure can cause you to learn some hard lessons! :) And if somebody learns from my lesson it might save them going through the same panic before a gig! :)
Regards
Derek Cook

http://www.carregddu.co.uk
http://www.echoes-music.co.uk
http://www.xfactory-librarians.co.uk
http://www.ex5tech.co.uk
Post Reply

Return to “Yamaha SY77 Forum - Covers the Sy77 Keyboard and TG77 Module”