Export sequences from SY77

Yamaha SY77 is a 16 voice multitimbral music workstation first produced by Yamaha Corporation in 1989. The SY77 is a synthesizer whose architecture combines AFM (Advanced Frequency Modulation) synthesis, AWM2 (Advanced Wave Memory 2) for ROM-borne sample-based synthesis, and the combination of these two methods christened Realtime Convolution and Modulation Synthesis (RCM).

Moderators: Derek, parametric, Saul

djazz75
Member
Member
Posts: 67
Joined: Tue Jan 14, 2014 2:50 pm
Contact:

Export sequences from SY77

Unread post by djazz75 »

Good morning all,

I'm trying to unearth, somehow, my first compositions made on my SY77, my very first synth acquired in 91: 8)

I have boxes full of floppy disks that I couldn't read. BAD DISK, you all know the problem. I started by changing the belt: slightly better, but no, the bad disks came back very quickly. Then buy a cleaning kit ..... ditto.

There I just changed the floppy using an adapter bought on ebay. it works better but still bad disks, which made me realize that in fact it is mostly my floppy disks which are tired (probably from humidity ..). So by cleaning them with a cotton swab and isopropanol alcohol (I tape the valve to keep it) miracle it works. Sometimes you have to insist and repeat the cleaning several times but it ends up loading the songs. Incredible to re-hear his compositions almost 30 years later! So I save them in Logic to keep track;)

By cons I do not see myself doing this every time, cleaning is really painful. So, is there another way to export your sequences so that you can re-inject them into the SY? I tried with SYSEX Librarian and the BULK DUMP / SEQ ALL function of the SY. The export from SY to the mac takes place normally, but in the other direction I have a MIDI CHECKSUM ERROR, and therefore unrecoverable sequences.

Otherwise, tell me if it seems feasible, I think I would try with a USB floppy drive (10 € on ebay): I would load the contents of the floppy in the mac to have the files, then I will buy the emulator from USB floppy disk (still on ebay) to read everything via USB key. Good must still put a 100 € note in history, but it can be practical, right? I can throw away all my old floppy disks.

To read to you



User avatar
parametric
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 4424
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 1:00 am
Location.: Near Watford, United Kingdom
Contact:

Re: Export sequences from SY77

Unread post by parametric »

Sadly, it is a matter of fact that magnetic media deteriorates with time.

Branded disks are usually better in this respect (TDK, SONY, Verbatum, Philips etc). Aftermarket "White Label" disks bought cheap at

computer fairs don't last so well.

INTERESTING TO NOTE that you have had success cleaning the actual media with IPA though - THANKS for mentioning that . . . (Y)

The important thing is to get those files OFF the Floppy Disks as soon as possible . . .

Problems with the SYSEX dumps back to the SY77 (and boards of a similar age) are generally due to two basic problems . . . . .

1. Cheap midi interfaces . . . . . The one pictured below will mostly NOT do SYSEX Dumps . . . Buy a branded interface . . . .

cheap midi interface.JPG
cheap midi interface.JPG (17.97 KiB) Viewed 543 times

2. You need to throttle-back the speed of data delivery.

The SY77 and similar boards cannot accept the data rate that modern computers want to send at . . . .

30 year-old computers had MHz processors, rather than GHz processors we have today. :idea:

Further to Floppy Drive Cleaning - You may be able to improve that by actually opening the drive and physically cleaning the head with IPA

and cotton buds. This can improve on the job done by Floppy cleaning disks.

Repeat the cleaning until the cotton bud is no longer BROWN . . . :wink:

Hopefully - that helps?

parametric
Alesis Fusion 8SSD AND 6SSD - BOTH are 384Mb/120Gb SSD/Akai ADVANCE61/Yamaha MOXF6/1024Mb Flash Ram/Yamaha SY85/8.5mb vol/1024k non-vol/DX21/Roland MT32/Bachmann double overstrung Baby Grand Piano/Win10 Pro/Ubuntu MATE 15.0.4/iBook G4/Mac OS 10.4.6/ProTools 7.4/MBox2/M-Audio MicroTrack 24/96

NI Komplete11 Ultimate

Sector101 2x SYEMB06 / 4 x EXM-E3 128MB DRAM Module

BRAND NEW DSDD (720k) FLOPPY DISKS FOR SALE - http://www.yamahaforums.co.uk/forum/vie ... =22&t=9217

Watch out now! take care, BEWARE of the greedy leaders! They'll take you where you should not go - (George Harrison)

IT'S TRUE - "MONEY TALKS" - TO ME, IT MOSTLY SAYS "GOODBYE" ;-)
http://www.chrisnmiller.co.uk/Chris

djazz75
Member
Member
Posts: 67
Joined: Tue Jan 14, 2014 2:50 pm
Contact:

Re: Export sequences from SY77

Unread post by djazz75 »

Yes, thanks to the cotton swab cleaning, some of my floppy disks have become readable again, but I feel that it will not last long because you have to insist, just that access to the menu is difficult and requires several cleanings.

My interface is an M AUDIO UNO. it works very well with sound banks. However impossible with the sequencer. I tried with slower transfer speeds but I still have the CHECKSUM ERROR.

User avatar
parametric
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 4424
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 1:00 am
Location.: Near Watford, United Kingdom
Contact:

Re: Export sequences from SY77

Unread post by parametric »

djazz75 wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 5:53 pm
My interface is an M AUDIO UNO. it works very well with sound banks. However impossible with the sequencer. I tried with slower transfer speeds but I still have the CHECKSUM ERROR.
THAT is a decent interface (Y)

I can't think WHY it doesn't like the Sequencer. :confusion-confused:

perhaps someone else can suggest something?

parametric
Alesis Fusion 8SSD AND 6SSD - BOTH are 384Mb/120Gb SSD/Akai ADVANCE61/Yamaha MOXF6/1024Mb Flash Ram/Yamaha SY85/8.5mb vol/1024k non-vol/DX21/Roland MT32/Bachmann double overstrung Baby Grand Piano/Win10 Pro/Ubuntu MATE 15.0.4/iBook G4/Mac OS 10.4.6/ProTools 7.4/MBox2/M-Audio MicroTrack 24/96

NI Komplete11 Ultimate

Sector101 2x SYEMB06 / 4 x EXM-E3 128MB DRAM Module

BRAND NEW DSDD (720k) FLOPPY DISKS FOR SALE - http://www.yamahaforums.co.uk/forum/vie ... =22&t=9217

Watch out now! take care, BEWARE of the greedy leaders! They'll take you where you should not go - (George Harrison)

IT'S TRUE - "MONEY TALKS" - TO ME, IT MOSTLY SAYS "GOODBYE" ;-)
http://www.chrisnmiller.co.uk/Chris

User avatar
Derek
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 5191
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2007 1:00 am
Location.: Wales, UK
Contact:

Re: Export sequences from SY77

Unread post by Derek »

The size of the sequencer dumps may still be too large for the UNO.

SY.factory will import sequence data in KNN format (but will not convert to MIDI) so you could try that. The un registered version should import (but you will not be blue to save until registered, when it will also export back to the SY.
Regards
Derek Cook

http://www.carregddu.co.uk
http://www.echoes-music.co.uk
http://www.xfactory-librarians.co.uk
http://www.ex5tech.co.uk

djazz75
Member
Member
Posts: 67
Joined: Tue Jan 14, 2014 2:50 pm
Contact:

Re: Export sequences from SY77

Unread post by djazz75 »

Yes maybe the UNO is too weak..

I downloaded SY.factory but I am not comfortable with the installation. the file is a .jar and mac OSX asks me to install another program. should i trust Is this program reliable with Mojave?

Otherwise can I buy a more powerful interface? and if yes which one ?

Has anyone here already exported a SY sequence to save it on another medium than a floppy disk?

djazz75
Member
Member
Posts: 67
Joined: Tue Jan 14, 2014 2:50 pm
Contact:

Re: Export sequences from SY77

Unread post by djazz75 »

I did a test with 2 another interfaces :

- Alesis IO / 2
- Steinberg UR22 mkII.

Works perfectly for Voices and Multis, but for sequences : MIDI Checksum ERROR. So exit the interface problem.

Must there be a solution to reload the sequencer data saved with MIDI / Bulk Dump / Seq All.... :think:

User avatar
Derek
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 5191
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2007 1:00 am
Location.: Wales, UK
Contact:

Re: Export sequences from SY77

Unread post by Derek »

djazz75 wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 9:40 am
Yes maybe the UNO is too weak..

I downloaded SY.factory but I am not comfortable with the installation. the file is a .jar and mac OSX asks me to install another program. should i trust Is this program reliable with Mojave?

Otherwise can I buy a more powerful interface? and if yes which one ?

Has anyone here already exported a SY sequence to save it on another medium than a floppy disk?
sy.factory is a Java program packaged as a Java Archive (JAR) so you need Java 8 on your system (this is no different to PC applications needing the .dot net program. It is perfectly safe to install Java on OS X, I am running it on Catalina and AVG is perfectly happy.

You may get some warnings because I am not an OS X registered developer selling via the APP store (there are reasons why I have not gone that route), but obviously I am not in the business of selling dangerous software.

Before discounting the UNO, I would see what the behaviour is under sy.factory in demo mode. My question on the UNO is only a question, it is not fact.
Regards
Derek Cook

http://www.carregddu.co.uk
http://www.echoes-music.co.uk
http://www.xfactory-librarians.co.uk
http://www.ex5tech.co.uk

djazz75
Member
Member
Posts: 67
Joined: Tue Jan 14, 2014 2:50 pm
Contact:

Re: Export sequences from SY77

Unread post by djazz75 »

Derek, I didn't quite understand that you are the software developer. I'll look at it more closely.

In the meantime, I downloaded MIDI Monitor as you advised me.

Here is the transfer monitoring. you can clearly see the invalid bytes which are saved and which block the transfer to the SY77.

Thanks to MIDI monitor, I could also see that when I increment the measures of the sequencer, with the data wheel, or the transport buttons, this creates this message of invalid bytes ...

Image
Image

User avatar
sy77wizard
Member
Member
Posts: 12
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2020 3:03 pm

Re: Export sequences from SY77

Unread post by sy77wizard »

Hi,

I accidentally am on a similar issue when I tried to recover disks of my own old SEQ ALL files (SY77 stores them in *.Kxx format).
I have just succeeded reading most of my files with a standard HD drive/Win XP PC. I used mostly Verbatim MF2-DD DataLife floppies and they all really work beautifully, even 30 years later. I haven't had a single read error from reading the files into my PC.
Mind you, the biggest issue is Yamaha's propietary OS which accepts tons of characters in filenames modern OSs wouldn't accept.
So I am not so happy these days that I decided to use fancy "/" or ".." characters in some of my files as I can't seem to find an easy way to get these files copied to modern PCs (which I need to do in order to get the virtual disk images together to fuel my USB emulator replacement drive).

I can only agree with what parametric said, DD drives are middle age hardware and about to be extinguished - make sure to migrate whatever you can salvage and try the USB asap.
Some data recovery tools may be helpful to read these dated disks into your Mac.

On the export question:

I am trying to figure out how to export the 16 Seq recorded channels from my many SEQ files into Cubase - just as djazz asked.
Would it be possible to READ and EXTRACT the *.Kxx files directly by software ?
Or is the only way to Record MIDI events from the SY77 while playing back the SEQ files ?

Cheers

User avatar
spo
Posts: 2
Joined: Sat May 23, 2020 9:19 pm
Location.: Helsinki, Finland

Re: Export sequences from SY77

Unread post by spo »

sy77wizard wrote:
Sun Apr 19, 2020 12:59 pm
Would it be possible to READ and EXTRACT the *.Kxx files directly by software ?
Or is the only way to Record MIDI events from the SY77 while playing back the SEQ files ?
I don't remember if SY77 is able to save songs in the .Xnn format like SY99, but if it is, a saved .Xnn file becomes a midi file simply by changing the suffix to .mid. I believe any daw is able to open a midi file.

User avatar
Derek
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 5191
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2007 1:00 am
Location.: Wales, UK
Contact:

Re: Export sequences from SY77

Unread post by Derek »

Apologies, but I missed the replies from sy77wizard and djazz75. That is not like me....

Not much I can add to djazz75's diagnosis. I have successfully transferred sequencer data from SYs to macs using Focusrite Sapphire or Scarlet interfaces. Something I would need to check again, but it should still be fine. I also detect a potential Pink Floyd fan as well? :)

Strange that you are getting this error on many interfaces. It is something I will have to retry when I get five minutes (I don't use Workstation sequencers at all)

sy.factory will read KNN files so you can get them back to the SY.

I also do not think that apo is correct (but prove me wrong with the proof, if you have it :) ). To my understanding, KNN is a file format that might embed MIDI data in its tracks when you get low down, but it also has a lot of Yamaha info in there, it starts with a "SY1_SEQALL" header, and so you can immediately see that it is not structured as a MIDI file which is based on a RIFF style chunk format. A MIDI file should start with a MThd header and contain tracks which start with MTrk chunks. If you search for those "chunk" names in a KNN file you will not find them, so any MIDI file parser will most likely reject the file. But If you have a means of recovering KNN data in the way you describe it would make a lot of people happy, so please do share if you have had success.
Regards
Derek Cook

http://www.carregddu.co.uk
http://www.echoes-music.co.uk
http://www.xfactory-librarians.co.uk
http://www.ex5tech.co.uk

Post Reply