help with sounddiver

The Yamaha SY99 is a synthesiser combining frequency modulation synthesis (branded as Advanced FM) and sample-based synthesis (branded as Advanced Wave Memory 2) and the direct successor to Yamaha's SY77/TG77

Moderators: Derek, parametric, Saul

User avatar
echos
Member
Member
Posts: 150
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2007 12:00 am

help with sounddiver

Unread post by echos » Mon Aug 06, 2007 6:02 pm

Is anyone familiar with this program? I recently acquired a fully expanded SY99 and I am trying to load an sds sample via sounddiver. I don't see how that is done.

Also I am building AFM algorithms in free edit mode, but I don't understand something... Each operator is represented by a box with 3 partitions, what do each of these partitions represent? So for example a pair of Ops can be wired together in 3 different ways.

Anyone have the manual for using sounddiver in pdf format?
User avatar
Clyde
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 6073
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 1:00 am
United States of America

Unread post by Clyde » Tue Aug 07, 2007 12:23 am

Hi echos,
Welcome to the Forums! I also have an SY99 with the full complement of SYEMB05 ram boards. My usual sample loading roution is to download samples in any format, convert them to SY format with Awave, then save them to floppy disk and load from the 99's floppy drive. I'm sure there is a way to accomplish what you are trying to do with Soundiver, but I have no knowledge of that program and someone else will have to help you with that. Yes, what you are seeing in the algorithm edits is exactly the different options about how an operator will be "wired" in the algorithm, see page 138 in the SY99 owner's manual for the note that "free algorithm" editing cannot be done from the front panel of the SY99, but must be done by sysex parameter change messages from midi in port (presumably sent from your computer). Each operator has two input sources, they can either be another operator or an AWM waveform or a feedback loop. You could probably do a pretty good Hammond sound using five operators as carriers and one operator as a modulator (algorithm 44) modulating all five carriers at their first modulation input (with different levels of modulation for each carrier), then use a Hammond AWM wave to further modulate the carriers in their second modulation input. Also the initial selection of which waveform you want each operator to start out as (sine wave or one of 15 other more complex waveforms) can make some big changes. There is not a lot of experience posted anywhere that I have seen on free editing algorithms, most people never get that far, I never have and I have done a ton of SY77/SY99 voice editing since 1990.
Clyde
User avatar
echos
Member
Member
Posts: 150
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2007 12:00 am

Unread post by echos » Tue Aug 07, 2007 4:44 am

Is it faster to load samples by disk or over midi? I know you had made a quite large piano patch Clyde, that must take a while to load.

I'm supposing the 3 partitions of an op in sounddiver represent the in1, in2 & feedback. I didn't realize each operator was allowed 2 inputs. Now that I read more closely, according to the sy99 manual there should be no difference if an op is modulated by either input or by its feedback, and they are all treated the same? When I tested this yesterday I did notice a difference but maybe that was because I had different modulation levels, hmmm.
User avatar
Clyde
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 6073
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 1:00 am
United States of America

Unread post by Clyde » Tue Aug 07, 2007 9:32 pm

echos wrote:Is it faster to load samples by disk or over midi? I know you had made a quite large piano patch Clyde, that must take a while to load.

I'm supposing the 3 partitions of an op in sounddiver represent the in1, in2 & feedback. I didn't realize each operator was allowed 2 inputs. Now that I read more closely, according to the sy99 manual there should be no difference if an op is modulated by either input or by its feedback, and they are all treated the same? When I tested this yesterday I did notice a difference but maybe that was because I had different modulation levels, hmmm.
I've never loaded samples via midi to my SY99, so I can't say how long that takes. The samples for the large piano patch are right at three mb total and are on four disks, it takes each disk 30-45 seconds to load. In spite of what the manual said, it depends on your input mod. settings as to whether or not it sounds different. An op can be modulated by another op, modulated by itself (feedback loop), or modulated by an AWM wave, and I guarantee they will sound different from each other unless they are the same due to their setup. If op1 is freq. 1.00 and is modulated by op2 which is also freq. 1.00, then it will not make any difference whether op1 is modulated by op2 or feedback from itself (for all practical purposes), and if the AWM wave also has a freq. of 1.00 then that too would sound the same (more or less) if it modulates op1. Change the freq. of op2 and the AWM wave to 2.00, then the feedback loop modulating (op1 modulating op1) will sound different than op2 and AWM wave (both with freq. of 2.0) modulating op1. Leave op1 at 1.00, leave op2 at 2.00, change AWM wave to freq. of 3.00, now all three options will sound completely different from each other. Keep in mind that this is a very simplistic explanation and assumes that all other settings, etc. are the same for op1, op2, and the AWM wave (such as rate/level envelopes, etc.). I don't know what your level of understanding is of FM programming, if I'm being too simplistic, let me know. IMHO, anyone that wants to program an SY77/99 sucessfully needs an excellent FM programming base, then needs to be familar with AWM programming, and finally then needs to understand how to combine both to reach the end result you want. That's not to say that you can't come up with some great sounds by editing/tweaking without understanding completely, but complete understanding makes it far easier to reach your goal much quicker when editing/creating sounds.
Clyde
User avatar
echos
Member
Member
Posts: 150
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2007 12:00 am

Unread post by echos » Wed Aug 08, 2007 12:23 am

I'm entirely new to synthesis but I have read a lot on the FM theory, for now I am just experimenting with op1 & op2 to see how the operators work. That's what Chowning calls "simple fm". I want to be able to predictably develop certain aspects of a sound such as a hollow sound, drum-like sound, bell, etc. I have some old tutorials to follow on constructing voices for the DX-7 that also work for the SY if you use a conversion table to set the output levels.

Since I'm so new I have to learn everything, not just FM. I don't really understand envelope or envelope generators yet because in the documents I've been reading so far they assume you already know these types of things.

What was confusing me mainly about the algorithms, is that when you have one like #45 they all seem to be connected in the diagram, however they are all supposed to be carriers and are not really connected in any way. That line drawing really should be represented as going off into the effect processor.
User avatar
Clyde
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 6073
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 1:00 am
United States of America

Unread post by Clyde » Wed Aug 08, 2007 1:18 am

That's just the way the algorithm drawings have always been done, the bottom line is to the output and/or effects section. So yes, algorithm 45 is indeed six carriers. Don't know which tutorials you have, Howard Massey did some very good ones for the DX7, the DX7II, and the SY77 (which is fundamentally the same as the SY99). He also did a good article in the Sept. 1987 issue of Keyboard magazine, "Tricks, Traps, and Undocumented Features of the DX7II", also some good articles in Keyboard April and May of 1988. Another good one was by former Yamaha Product Specialist Kevin Stratton in the Nov. 1987 issue of Electronic Musician "The Continually Expanding Universe: Tips to Tame the DX7II". Also a series by Lorenz Rychner in Music Technology magazine every month from Jan. to June 1989 called "Programming Compleat". There was also an "Applications Guidebook SY77" written by Howard Massey and that came directly from Yamaha to all early purchasers of the SY77 (and may have also gone to other buyers later). So there is a ton of FM programming books, tutorials, and articles out there. There was also a book (don't remember the author or the publisher) "SY77 Cheater's Guide and Cookbook" or something similar. You might also want to check www.fm-alive.com/ Jon Morgan has written some good programs including his SY Manager Editor/Librarian that supports the SY77, SY99, and TG77. While Chowning was the "father of FM", his books and work were mostly theory (though they did produce some crude FM synthesis at Stanford) and while a good foundation to know, other books and such dealing with the DX and SY FM programming are much more practical and easier to put into practice. The most important thing to remember as you work your way through programming is do not be afraid to try something, it either will do what you want, won't do what you want, or partially do what you want, it doesn't really matter as you will learn from the experience. If I can help you just let me know.
Clyde
User avatar
echos
Member
Member
Posts: 150
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2007 12:00 am

Unread post by echos » Wed Aug 08, 2007 5:13 pm

Hey thanks for that list, I have some assorted things in pdf format, one is a book by chowning and has lots of theory but also some hands on examples to program the dx7 and that's what I was going on so far.

My county libraries have the massey books complete dx7 & dx7II, also one called easy dx7 so I will see if I can get ahold of them. Do you have the Applications Guidebook or any of those others? I think that the guidebook would be impossible to find unless someone could scan it or if yamaha still has copies of it to buy.

SY-manager is very similar to sounddiver actually, I have been using both.
User avatar
Clyde
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 6073
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 1:00 am
United States of America

Unread post by Clyde » Wed Aug 08, 2007 11:17 pm

I have the SY77 Applications Guidebook, but it would be quite an undertaking to get it in an uploadable form as it is around 130 pages. I also have the magazine articles I listed, both copies and the original magazines in storage. The articles could be scanned and put in PDF format, again a time consuming project that I don't have time to do at present. I'll check around a little bit and see what I can find already on the net. Any thing you can find by Howard Massey pertaining to FM programming will prove very useful. While Soundiver and SY manager may be similar, I like the idea that SY manager is specific to the SY77/99 and TG77.
Clyde
User avatar
echos
Member
Member
Posts: 150
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2007 12:00 am

Unread post by echos » Thu Aug 09, 2007 8:33 am

I have located the author of the Cheater's Guide and Cookbook to see if reprints of the books he had made are available, I noticed someone in the Ex5 forum say he also wrote 2 others, and sy99.com says that a cheaters guide did exist for the sy99 as well as sy77. Those are the only books I know of that were specifically written toward the SY itself so with any luck I can get those. :)

Sound Making Level 1
Cheaters Guide and Cookbook
Sequencing Handbook


Here's what I have found online so far for anyone else that might want it.

Lots of PDFs in the manuals section of this site
http://jaypee.sy99.free.fr/menu.html

How to program the DX7 (Keyboard Mag, June 1985)
http://www.maths.abdn.ac.uk/~bensondj/html/dx7.html

Interview with Chowning on same site
http://www.maths.abdn.ac.uk/~bensondj/h ... wning.html

Yamaha sampler handbook, general info on sampling
http://www.yamahasynth.com/products/a5000/shb.pdf
Post Reply

Return to “Yamaha SY99 Forum”