Maximum stupidity

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Saul
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Re: Maximum stupidity

Unread post by Saul » Fri Jan 03, 2014 11:26 pm

Saw that quite a while ago Chris. We often make jokes about it even now but, if you look at the kids that are coming out of our rather appalling education system today and then realize these unintelligent, uncultured lot are, at some point going to produce children, who will no doubt be even dumber than their parents then you can see the the movie coming to life right in front of you :(

That One way trip to Mars looks more promising by the day ;)
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Re: Maximum stupidity

Unread post by EX5_etc » Sat Jan 04, 2014 7:01 am

parametric wrote:I've mentioned this before in here I think, but you guys should definitely see a movie called "Idiocracy".

Although set in America, it is a chilling portrayal of how our present course might turn out.

parametric
I saw it a few months ago. It is set in America because that's where it belongs. Due to all the PC crap we have to deal with today, the movie was in its natural setting. Unfortunately the script lacks a lot at times. But the message gets out. I did not expect it to succeed because my fellow citizens do not like to be told that they behave in a rather stupid way. A stupid person cannot understand what it means to be stupid. It is as simple as that. When you go to school and they brainwash you that a person with high IQ is equal to a person with low IQ then you go with that. People have the same rights but they are not equal in terms of abilities. It could be of course that some people have become stupid because they were intentionally taught to use their brains in a very inefficient way. Who knows...

I have been watching lots of movies/documentaries about the space race lately. Scientists, administrators and engineers were competing not just with another country but among themselves, taking risks, making bold decisions, ignoring commands that were deemed stupid. Of course we did not have that many laws back then and we did not have lawyers either. We did not care about hurting someone's feelings. Many have said that if we had then the views we have today nobody would have set foot on the moon.

That spirit and mentality are missing today. We have teachers that hold a class back because one student or more cannot keep up with the others. In my day those students would stay behind and finish later after repeating a whole year. They felt bad understandably but the rest of us had to move on faster. Today the teacher gets an angry visit by the helicopter parents of that kid or he is called at the principal's office to be told to be "considerable" of others.

From what I read here I can wish everyone good luck with your "socialist" programs. Also do not forget to take a look at some countries that belong to the EU and took a dive. There are many reasons why they took a dive but one of them is that you cannot have the few working like dogs while the rest enjoy benefits doing nothing. You cannot live on money you don't have. Over here our politicians want to avoid a default. So they keep borrowing and borrowing without caring of the bubble that gets bigger and bigger. All bubbles explode and so will this one. And because the various financial systems are connected, the collapse of the American one will take everybody down. Unless the bubble breaks in Europe first. The result will be the same more or less.

In addition you cannot have those (even fewer) that accumulate wealth and do nothing with it. A person that owns $200 million can live nicely on $100 million. The extra $100 million can be distributed to those less fortunate. Capitalism works on the principle of using money to make money. Sitting on top of $200 million that is stored in the bank defies that principle. Of course the re-distribution of money is not supposed to be a simple "here is a $10000 check, enjoy it" action because it will lead to nothing but more trouble. Take a look at the lootings that erupt when something goes wrong in some american city. The poor people loot and they are still poor after the looting ends.

We need to re-boot somehow. In the past re-booting required that people on one side of the pond had to get on a boat and move to the other side. That other side was vastly unknown. We have no space left on our planet to use as a re-boot playground. We have no technology to go to another planet either. So we must find a solution based on what we have. If the two world wars had worked in fixing things I would have suggested a third one. But they did not work. So I am not sure where to go from here.

As for that unconditional income... I believe that those who work more and make more have a right to luxuries. If I have a brain or abilities that allow me to have an income of $200k per year then I should have access to some luxuries. If on the other hand I have decided to seat my butt in front of the TV, eating chips and drinking soda all day long I should have no access to luxuries. There is nothing we can do about the type of brain and mental abilities we have; we are given those during birth. I would like to be as smart as those geniuses that work at MIT and CalTech but I am not. We can improve/develop our abilities a bit but we cannot do miracles. Trying to equalize people/income while ignoring that fact can only lead to serious issues. So I am against unconditional income. I did not sacrifice over 10 years of my life to get 3 degrees only to make as much money as the fat creep that plays games on his big screen TV all day long. Communism tried to enforce similar ideas and we all know what happened. Nature decided that people won't be equal in terms of mental abilities. It is not smart to try and change that.

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Re: Maximum stupidity

Unread post by Saul » Sat Jan 04, 2014 7:29 pm

I don't think a "citizens income" can work. Some how, some way, someone needs to provide the funds for that. The people not working are providing nothing whilst the people working are providing the extra money for them to sit at home all day. Also bear in mind that many who "apparently" do not work and are on benefits actually do work but in the black economy, paying no taxes of any sort. So they get all their living expenses paid for by the state (you and me) at the same time as getting a tax free income from whatever dodgy job they have on the side.

I know the idea behind the "citizens income" is that everyone get's it, including the people who work, so effectively your work income is in addition to the standard citizens income. That however dose not negate the fact that the workers are subsidizing the non workers. The non workers are contributing a big fat zero to the economy whilst the rest of us are propping the whole system up.

Communism was and is a myth. It doesn't work and will never work. Lenin used to get his clothes made in Paris. He would wear them when out of the country and change into his "fake" workers clothes when returning to Russia. The old Soviet politicians all lived very lavish and comfortable lifestyles whilst the peasants in the countryside...who they were supposed to be equal with, were starving to death. It's the same in China, Cuba and North Korea.

I have no doubt that at some point in the distant future we may develop a much fairer society that is not solely driven by money but that is a very long way off. Right now, if you take away the rewards and incentives for hard working people they may just stop working so hard and eventually the economy will collapse.

No, it's very simple. Stop handing out unlimited benefits and make people work for the benefits they do receive. I'm not saying make someone do a 40hr week for a pittance but they should earn what they get.

I often hear the same old argument from people on benefits saying it's slave labour but what they conveniently always fail to add into the equation is their housing benefit and free medical cover. If you take into account the rent or mortgage that is paid by the state and then add that to the actual unemployment benefit then they are actually on a pretty average wage. What do they think the normal working person has left out of their salary after paying all the bills?

Still, i cannot blame the people who live on benefits. I blame the governments that let them do it. They can see the problem yet they don't act on it. We have endless white papers and consultations but no hard and fast action on the ground. For a start they could stop giving people cash! They don't need cash. They need to pay for the essentials which is what benefits were for in the first place. Cigarettes and alcohol are not essentials, they are luxuries and if you want them then work for them! Sky TV is not an essential, holidays are not essential and play stations and Xboxes are definitely not essentials. Benefits should be for food, utilities and perhaps traveling expenses to get to job interviews. Benefits should not be paying for a "lifestyle". Until we get that right it will stay in the mess it's currently in and we will be forever paying out billions every year so people don't have to work.
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Re: Maximum stupidity

Unread post by Derek » Sat Jan 04, 2014 8:56 pm

I agree with all of that, Saul! :)

Communism=Animal Farm; "all people were equal, but some were always going to be more equal than others!"

The idea of a living wage cannot work as there is no obvious motivation for anybody to do anything! If I didn't have to work to pay my way (and live the lifestyle I like) I wouldn't; I'd be indulging all the hobbies that I don't have time for! If everybody did that then nothing would get done, and we'd go to rats pretty fast; the scheme of money as a barter system for exchange of products and services is not perfect, but it works in general.

The problem with the current Welfare state was that it was meant to be a safety net in times of hardship, not a lifestyle choice, which it has become, and of course when you can get more in benefits than you can earn, it is no surprise that it encourages the wrong behaviour in some.

I personally think that IDS and the Tories are on the right track, but as usual the implementation is cack handed, and they haven't gone far enough.

I actually think benefits are essentially unreceipted expenses, in that you get a wad of money to spend how you see fit. . If I go away on business with my employer, every expense I make has to be justifiable, receipted and claimed for. Why can't benefits be like that? In some ways an analogy of the current benefit system is like when I used to be a civil servant in the 80s, you claimed a per diem rate irrespective of what expense you actually incurred, and of course there were people I knew who were, whilst away, kipping in cars or very cheap B&Bs, living on fish and chips and pocketing quite a large difference; because they could! Don't get me started on the MP expenses debacle, which took that system to ludicrous heights!

If benefits worked like expenses, you are obviously paid in arrears for what is legitimate, so the only flaw is ensuring that you have some form of credit facility (like a card or an enforced overdraft from one of the banks that the tax payers own) for people who need to claim to be able to incur expense in the first place. But in this scheme you can claim for the essentials and non essentials are not covered, so if you want Sky, Tobacco and Booze you have to go and get. I mentioned in another post, that I grew up poor in the 70s, and we had no luxuries at all, and I don't think it harmed me. It makes me appreciate what I do have now.
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Re: Maximum stupidity

Unread post by Buzzard » Sat Jan 04, 2014 9:44 pm

I'll never go to the states with a wood button in my pants.

First they will confiscate my button, then arrest me for obscenity when my pants drop. :roll:

I'm really sorry that this is NOT an aprils fool joke, real life can be so much more cruel. :/:
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