Any Brits got £1.7 Billion Down the Back of the Sofa?

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Any Brits got £1.7 Billion Down the Back of the Sofa?

Unread post by Derek » Sat Oct 25, 2014 8:22 am

What an outrage.

Our UK economy is allegedly doing well (but the debt keeps accumulating despite what the politicians tell us about reducing the deficit - currently £1.3 trillion and counting (see http://www.debt-clock.org/)), so we get a bill from the Eurocrats which is effectively wealth redistribution to the member states who are not doing well because they are hamstrung by the Euro and their economies are in recession as a result.

I say use the £1.7 billion to pay off some of the £1.3 trillion debt, and stick our proverbial two fingers up at the Eurocrats.

In the 41 years since we joined the EEC, we have paid out more than we get back in 40 of those 41 years. The only exception when we hot more was in 1975, the year there was a referendum for UK to stay in. Now call me cynical, but.... ;)
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Re: Any Brits got £1.7 Billion Down the Back of the Sofa?

Unread post by tux » Sat Oct 25, 2014 10:37 am

How many billions does Wales get from London as subsidies?

Aren't more than 50% of all employees in Wales working in the public sector (which is another form of subsidy)?


Do Brits even exist? When I lived in the UK I only met English, Welsh and Scottish people, never anyone identifying her/himself as a Brit... :wink:
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Re: Any Brits got £1.7 Billion Down the Back of the Sofa?

Unread post by Saul » Sat Oct 25, 2014 11:39 am

If you ask people what their nationality is they will say British. It's even on our passport. My wife is not an "English" citizen she is a "British" citizen. We don't pay the EU as separate countries but as one. We are collectively "British".

We do have devolved powers to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland but that is simply part of the UK administration as a whole. It's far easier to "manage" at a local level than from a central government. Ultimately though we are a nation island.

As for Wales and it's economy...well I'll leave that one to Derek ;)

I sincerely hope we are not going to pay this ridiculous bit of "Euro theft". This money was earned by the British people and should be invested back into "our" economy, not those of other European nations who can't seem to manage their own economies properly.
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Re: Any Brits got £1.7 Billion Down the Back of the Sofa?

Unread post by SysExJohn » Sat Oct 25, 2014 12:17 pm

I must admit to being confused.

1.7 Bn pounds, right?
Now, when I went to school a billion was a million squared (1,000,000 x 1,000,000), 1,000,000².
I've not long returned to the UK from living in Germany where they are confused too, having a separate word for thousand million (Milliarden).
It seems that the meaning of billion has changed to mean thousand million, but when did that happen and has it ever been formally redefined?

So does 1.7 Bn equal 1,700,000,000,000 or 1,700,000,000? i.e. one thousand seven hundred million.
And does a trillion equal 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 or the devalued 1,000,000,000,000, i.e a billion?

Is this another sign of inflation gone mad?

Oh, and I'm a British colonial, having been raised in East Africa when Uganda was a Protectorate (long ago).

Germany has managed its economy properly and it is getting a rebate this year.
France?

Confused.
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Re: Any Brits got £1.7 Billion Down the Back of the Sofa?

Unread post by Derek » Sat Oct 25, 2014 6:35 pm

tux wrote:How many billions does Wales get from London as subsidies?

Aren't more than 50% of all employees in Wales working in the public sector (which is another form of subsidy)?


Do Brits even exist? When I lived in the UK I only met English, Welsh and Scottish people, never anyone identifying her/himself as a Brit... :wink:
That's all irrelevant to the point in question. Money coming from London to Wales is from UK taxation paid by UK taxpayers. As it happens, I didn't believe in devolution and voted against it, and I think the Welsh assembly are a bunch of muppets. I also don't believe in the profligate and bloated public sector, which needs slimming back drastically. Splurging money in the public sector never works.

Yes, Britain gets money back from the EU, but it's like me paying £1 into my bank and getting £0.80 back to spend on something not of my choosing (apart from the year when the bank gave me a vote to stay with them, when I was given £1.20 ;) ). We would be better off keeping our £1 to spend as we see fit within the country.

I certainly believe we should not pay this £1.7B.

The sooner we have a referendum on the EU the better in my opinion.
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Re: Any Brits got £1.7 Billion Down the Back of the Sofa?

Unread post by Saul » Sat Oct 25, 2014 7:00 pm

Problem is, they only want to give us a referendum in 2017, two years after the next government is voted into office and then it's dependent on the Conservatives being re-elected with a majority government. Labour don't want a referendum and the Lib Dems don't stand a cat in hell's chance of getting elected and any way they are Europhiles through and through, they don't want an election.

If we had an In/Out election right now, we would most definitely be leaving the EU and as much as I like the idea of "Stronger Together" it has become a bloated, costly mess and is a million miles away from the free trade area it was set up to be.
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Re: Any Brits got £1.7 Billion Down the Back of the Sofa?

Unread post by Daviedawg » Sun Oct 26, 2014 8:34 am

I do not usually comment on political issues. But you are right Saul. We joined the "Common Market" not a safe haven for the weakest link. Also I am surprised the German electorate has continued to support membership when so much of their taxes has disappeared into the Mediterranean Sea. They could have taken a stand to get things changed.

The problem is that it the officials have enough power either to dictate policy to the Members of Parliament or to make life hard for them to implement proper policies. So we get individuals who are unelected, have their own agendas and can bring them into being. It is an organisation worth having but which needs to be changed radically from the bottm to the top to meet the commercial needs of the member countries rather than the wishes of the officials.

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Re: Any Brits got £1.7 Billion Down the Back of the Sofa?

Unread post by Derek » Sun Oct 26, 2014 10:32 am

Saul wrote:Problem is, they only want to give us a referendum in 2017, two years after the next government is voted into office and then it's dependent on the Conservatives being re-elected with a majority government. Labour don't want a referendum and the Lib Dems don't stand a cat in hell's chance of getting elected and any way they are Europhiles through and through, they don't want an election.

If we had an In/Out election right now, we would most definitely be leaving the EU and as much as I like the idea of "Stronger Together" it has become a bloated, costly mess and is a million miles away from the free trade area it was set up to be.
Agreed on both counts. Will be interesting to see if in the next by election, if UKIP wins, scares the politicians sitting in their ivory tower!
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Re: Any Brits got £1.7 Billion Down the Back of the Sofa?

Unread post by Derek » Sun Oct 26, 2014 10:36 am

Daviedawg wrote:I do not usually comment on political issues. But you are right Saul. We joined the "Common Market" not a safe haven for the weakest link. Also I am surprised the German electorate has continued to support membership when so much of their taxes has disappeared into the Mediterranean Sea. They could have taken a stand to get things changed.

The problem is that it the officials have enough power either to dictate policy to the Members of Parliament or to make life hard for them to implement proper policies. So we get individuals who are unelected, have their own agendas and can bring them into being. It is an organisation worth having but which needs to be changed radically from the bottm to the top to meet the commercial needs of the member countries rather than the wishes of the officials.

Dd
Completely agreed, but when you look at the history of joining the "common market" we were hoodwinked by our own leaders. Political union was always the long term aim, but they knew that that would be a vote loser, so softly, softly....

Likewise with the Euro. You cannot have fiscal union without political union, as has been amply demonstrated with the slow motion car crash of the Euro, so they were never going to stop at currency union.
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Re: Any Brits got £1.7 Billion Down the Back of the Sofa?

Unread post by Saul » Sun Oct 26, 2014 4:37 pm

Question now is, why do we need to wait until 2017 for a referendum? It's a clear and cynical political ploy by the Conservatives to promise something that will ONLY be delivered if they are returned to government with a majority in parliament. Which of course would also give them a mandate for yet more austerity when it's doing absolutely nothing to reduce the national debt. Of course who is it that these austerity measures hit the most? the very people who DIDN'T cause the financial crisis in the first place, the poor, the low paid and those who were careful with their money by investing in pensions they are now never going to see.

I really hope Ukip do well in the upcoming by-election and continue to do well for the foreseeable future. Not because I agree with most of what they stand for but because we definitely need something to shake up these cozy job for life career politicians who play fast and loose with out countries future.
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Re: Any Brits got £1.7 Billion Down the Back of the Sofa?

Unread post by SysExJohn » Sun Oct 26, 2014 6:56 pm

"Cynical ploy!" Of course it is.
Politician's bribes, which somehow, if they do get in, they'll find a way of reneging upon if they believe it "won't be in the best interests of the country!"
What was it someone promised fairly recently about tuition fees?

And, of course, UKIP will NEVER become like the others if they get the balance of power, just like the lib dems haven't!

IMO UKIP's financial strategy doesn't add up. God help us all if they hold the balance with the Tories.
I can't see a massive vote for Milliband on the horizon.

Essentially, in my view, anyone who 'goes for power' is by definition untrustworthy.
Way back in the eighties I thought Thatcher might make a difference then, more recently, Blair. Well, they certainly did.
Milliband, Farage, Cameron, Clegg. I wouldn't buy a used car from any of them.
I suppose it's a case of working out which is least dangerous!

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Re: Any Brits got £1.7 Billion Down the Back of the Sofa?

Unread post by Derek » Sun Oct 26, 2014 7:44 pm

SysExJohn wrote: Milliband, Farage, Cameron, Clegg. I wouldn't buy a used car from any of them.
I suppose it's a case of working out which is least dangerous!

Just my 2d. for what it's worth.
That is indeed the problem.

Labour: I cannot vote for any party that crashed the economy, and have still not said sorry for it. Likewise, I cannot vote for any party who thinks the solution to any problem is throw money at it.

Liberal: I am not a leftist liberal who believes in climate change, and taxing the rich even more by stupid ideas such as mansion taxes - look at the distribution of the taxes paid by the wealthy for why I say that. And, no, I am not rich, but I am just inside the 40% tax bracket, so not poor either.

UKIP: I believe in UK independence, but they are simply not credible as a party

Conservative: I can't say the current lot impress me, but I think my political outlook has always been more conservative than anything else. I believe in a small state and allowing people to keep more of their money, which in itself creates revenue and jobs for the Government.

But I can guarantee around here, my vote will not count for much, as we have an incumbent lib dem MP with a large majority. Having said that, their time in power seems to have pissed off some of their core vote.
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Re: Any Brits got £1.7 Billion Down the Back of the Sofa?

Unread post by Derek » Sun Oct 26, 2014 7:51 pm

Saul wrote:Question now is, why do we need to wait until 2017 for a referendum? It's a clear and cynical political ploy by the Conservatives to promise something that will ONLY be delivered if they are returned to government with a majority in parliament. Which of course would also give them a mandate for yet more austerity when it's doing absolutely nothing to reduce the national debt. Of course who is it that these austerity measures hit the most? the very people who DIDN'T cause the financial crisis in the first place, the poor, the low paid and those who were careful with their money by investing in pensions they are now never going to see.

I really hope Ukip do well in the upcoming by-election and continue to do well for the foreseeable future. Not because I agree with most of what they stand for but because we definitely need something to shake up these cozy job for life career politicians who play fast and loose with out countries future.
It is indeed a ploy, but currently the only chance we have of getting a referendum of any sort, unless UKIP really do cause more upset, which could happen.

I can't take UKIP seriously as a party ready for power, but I like the fact that they are upsetting the political establishment, and could indeed hold the balance of power in 2015 if we end up with another coalition.

Tomorrow will be quite interesting to see what Cameron will do with this £1.7B demand when he stands up in Parliament. If he is a sissy and caves in, that could well play into UKIP's hand just before the upcoming by election.
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Re: Any Brits got £1.7 Billion Down the Back of the Sofa?

Unread post by Saul » Sun Oct 26, 2014 7:57 pm

I agree. UKIP can't be taken seriously as a party fit for government but they are at least causing a stir in British politics which is what we desperately need. Would be interesting to see what would happen if they hold the balance of power in 2015.

We rarely seem to have much of a choice when it comes to elections :( Seems it's always a case of voting for the least worst rather than a party you truly believe will bring change.
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Re: Any Brits got £1.7 Billion Down the Back of the Sofa?

Unread post by Fozzer » Mon Oct 27, 2014 1:05 am

Me?
I'm English.
My Biking Chums over the Border are Welsh.
..and the Scots are just too far away!

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