Yamaha V50 and "dodgy" online floppies

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pipzuk
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Yamaha V50 and "dodgy" online floppies

Unread post by pipzuk » Sat Feb 09, 2019 12:40 am

Yamaha V50.png
Hi - my first post!
I have a couple (long story) of V50's and a while back I upgraded them to Gotek drives, it was a disaster as although the Synth would read/write to the disks it was having none of it when it came to adding files I'd downloaded from the internet (Vnn files, I wasn't doing anything stupid like trying to feed it sysex files!), I recently added one to my SY99 and with the latest FlashFloppy being so good I thought I'd revisit the V50's but no, the disk images still don't work - so I looked into it a little deeper.

Online, through several sources, can be found "1packof8", "2packof8" and "3packof5" zip files of V50 disks - which, apart from sounding like Borg designations (Star Trek reference!) purport to contain disks of V50 files, load 'em in to a hex editor and they look the business but they just won't load into the synth, eventually I even resurrected a real disk drive just to be sure, I've downloaded them from multiple sources but no joy every time. Initially I blamed my Gotek but now I know this isn't the case, every one of the Vnn files in those zip files has, at some point, been through a text editor, and every instance of the byte value 13 has the value 10 appended - (carriage return/line feed, which is why I know they've been butchered by being loaded into a text editor) - and it looks like the resulting images have "done the rounds" and propagated across the net! Unfortunately it's not as simple as changing all occurrences of 13,10 back to just 13 because some occurrences of 13,10 are actually correct! For the performance and voice data there's a small data block size so it's usually possible to correct manually (though in cases where there's more combinations of 13,10 than there are extra bytes in the data which ones are correct?)

I've almost manually sorted 2 out of the 21 files and it's extremely time consuming so initially I'm asking if anyone has working copies of these files as there's no point in reinventing the wheel? if not I'm quite prepared to battle my way through the remaining files and I'll upload them here as working versions if that's OK by admin?, it'll just be voices and performances, some of the files seem to contain demo songs too but I just don't see how it's possible to determine which extra values to strip out from those blocks of data.

It's strange that so far I've seen no other comment on this (and the zip files are widely distributed), so either nobody has tried to use these images or given it up as a bad job without creating a fuss! but I'm 100% sure it's not me being stupid.
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parametric
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Re: Yamaha V50 and "dodgy" online floppies

Unread post by parametric » Sat Feb 09, 2019 1:58 am

Welcome to the Forums pipzuk,

THAT sounds like a huge task. KUDOS for your tenacity in tackling it . . .

I have seen the V50 discussed in here over the years, so there ARE users in here . . .

Hopefully some will be in touch when they see this . . . . ?

As you say - it makes no sense to go through that pain if someone HAS working versions of those files . . .

perhaps you could post the filenames that are inside the .zips so they can be recognised by those who may have them?

If you could get a working version of each of the "Types" (with demo), (without demo) etc, you could perhaps use

that to compare - and resolve those byte numbers ?

This is a problem of files from the Internet. If they are not "from the source" (i.e. Yamaha), you can't be sure

they've not been messed with . . .

I would hope that once the files are "correct", the Gotek Drives should deal with them OK?

One thing IS certain IMO . . . . your efforts are likely to be applauded in THESE Forums . . .

ATB

parametric
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Re: Yamaha V50 and "dodgy" online floppies

Unread post by pipzuk » Sat Feb 09, 2019 10:14 am

Yes, I have a soft spot for the V50, the "last" of the 4-op FM synths! - also I can move it fairly easily, unlike the SY99 which I practically have to make an appointment to play! There's never been an issue with the Gotek, initially it was just a case of "garbage in, garbage out", stupidly I believed that the files "must" be OK therefore the Gotek was at fault, nothing could have been further from the truth and the emulator is behaving perfectly.

I've finished two of the files so that's the job 10% done, I manually go through the data header then the blocks of data for 100 voices and 100 performances, making a special note of any blocks where I have to make a guess (so I can change the data later if the result turns out to be a bit of a clanger!). The resulting "V" file still won't load due to the corruption in the song data but it WILL load in to YSEditor running under an Atari emulator, that will then re-save the data as an "I" file of voice/performance data, stripping out any dodgy demo files that I'm unable to correct and those seem to load OK into the V50. The original disks seem to date from 1985 which is a little odd as that's four years before the synth was sold, the data may be corrupt but it's definitely V50 data so the date may be a red herring. Here's the directory listings, the file sizes are of the corrupt files so any pristine files should be slightly smaller.

Directory of 1packof8

26/10/1985 12:12 86,124 heavyne.v06
26/10/1985 12:12 88,284 hymm.v07
26/10/1985 12:12 61,683 latin.v02
26/10/1985 12:12 53,522 paladium.v08
26/10/1985 12:12 58,623 rock.v03
26/10/1985 12:12 85,188 swirlies.v01
26/10/1985 12:12 72,924 frugyle.v05
26/10/1985 12:12 92,343 garceso.v04


Directory of 2packof8

26/10/1985 12:12 39,151 exampls.v05
26/10/1985 12:12 56,562 funk.v04
26/10/1985 12:12 62,733 fushion.v01
26/10/1985 12:12 61,592 newyork.v08
26/10/1985 12:12 80,054 sowho.v02
26/10/1985 12:12 59,585 video!sq.v06
26/10/1985 12:12 100,572 babylon.v07
26/10/1985 12:12 86,198 dowchow.v03


Directory of 3packof5

26/10/1985 12:12 49,325 multitim.v05
26/10/1985 12:12 53,396 new-age.v02
26/10/1985 12:12 49,308 pnondark.v03
26/10/1985 12:12 50,322 rapnblu.v04
26/10/1985 12:12 46,333 los.v01
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Re: Yamaha V50 and "dodgy" online floppies

Unread post by Logic » Fri Feb 22, 2019 8:00 am

Hi, I have a V50, and I tried the same "on line" floppies a while ago and could not get them to load either so thanks for explaining why. I am not sure I have the skills to edit them but would be interested in the results.
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Re: Yamaha V50 and "dodgy" online floppies

Unread post by Saul » Fri Feb 22, 2019 2:58 pm

Interesting thread this. I remember wanting a V50 when they came out. I think I still have the original SOS review here somewhere. Always sounded like a great keyboard to me but I guess FM was declining in popularity when it arrived on the market hence why it never sold in huge numbers. Also of course it was 4-OP instead of 6 like the DX so that may have stalled sales a little.

Great though to see people still using and working on "upgrading" this keyboard. That's a huge amount of work you put in there pipzuk. Thanks for sharing the info :clap: :clap: :clap:
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Re: Yamaha V50 and "dodgy" online floppies

Unread post by fifcic » Fri Mar 29, 2019 7:01 pm

Hello.
The V50 brings back a lot of memories. Still have mine (stored). One thing to know about the V50 floppies. There was a small issue with floppies formatted on the V50. They could not be red on a PC or Atari ST even tho they were formatted in FAT format. The issue was, if I remember, because Yamaha did not get yet the license from Microsoft to use the FAT format on the floppies and they decided to "omit" the MSDOS EDID in the boot sector of the floppies. As a result the PC could not parse the file system type. The solution as provided by YAMAHA to the dealers (no internet at the time....) was to always format the floppies on a PC or Atari ST FIRST before using them on the V50 and forget the format function in the V50.
I hope this helps.
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Re: Yamaha V50 and "dodgy" online floppies

Unread post by Logic » Sat Apr 06, 2019 10:59 pm

Hi Pipzuk

As I mentioned previously I have had a lot of issues trying to recover data off the V50 floppies and fifcic is correct - V50 created floppy disks are extremely difficult/impossible to read on any PC. All my V50 floppy disks had been formatted on my V50 at least 20 years ago so I was stuck. I tried several things to try and read them including trying DOS emulators, creating a real DOS6.0 PC using an old motherboard with embedded DD floppy disk drive, etc. Nothing worked. In the end I went to an IT data recovery expert and he managed to retrieve all my files from disk images of my floppy disks. It cost but it worked. I can now use all the files with the floppy emulator that I installed. If anyone needs information I can post details how to contact the IT data recovery expert

Looking at the list of files on pipzuk's post, this seems to include the files on the original V50 demo disk supplied with the keyboard new from Yamaha. (Swirlies, DowChoy, Heavyne, Frugyle, Garceso, Hymm, SoWho). Most of the voice and performance data within these files was based on the internal V50 presets although the songs uses some new new performance and voice data. Some of the other titles in the list share the names of the Sound Source Unlimited floppy Disks that were sold at the same time as the V50 in Music Stores ( I know of New York, New-Age, and Multimtim). These all contained some really good voice and performance data as well as the demo song.

Hope this is of interest.
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Re: Yamaha V50 and "dodgy" online floppies

Unread post by parametric » Sat Apr 06, 2019 11:38 pm

I remember back in the Dos days - the floppy based "Norton Utilities were GREAT for recovering "difficult" floppies.

Most of the other utilities would give-up at the first sight of a bad sector, but NU used to hammer away at it

(you could hear the floppy drive reattempting the read . . . ). This MOSTLY resulted in a successful read.

I don't know what was going on in there - changing voltages or whatever - but it invariably worked.

I can't remember the version, but it could have been concurrent as early as MsDos 3.30

I still have hundreds of floppies I keep meaning to chuck out . . . Might even be in there with THEM . . . ?

parametric
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Re: Yamaha V50 and "dodgy" online floppies

Unread post by Sonus » Sat Apr 13, 2019 9:04 am

Image

The Classic Corner spread these dodgy 'zip for PC' files, no issues with 'hqx for Mac'.
It has nothing to do with V50 floppy disk format, just extract 'hqx for Mac'.

DX7II-FD and V50 do not write a BIOS Parameter Block while formatting 720K 2DD floppies.
This is part of the boot sector saying "Hello, I'm a FAT12, T:80, N:9 formatted disk".

A PC won't recognize the DX7II-FD/V50 disk and will ask to format the disk again
although on the low level (tracks, sectors) both are perfectly compatible.

Even without BPB, MSX Disk-Manager can read V50 disks and extract files
otherwise format the 2DD disks on PC before writing data on the V50.

Image
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