Midi dgx 660

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Re: Midi dgx 660

Unread post by SeaGtGruff » Fri Feb 24, 2017 7:27 pm

PierP wrote:That said, I don't quite agree on your statement above.
USB port design doesn't fall under Yamaha's umbrella (of course) but socket type choice definetly YES!
is there any techical reason to prefer an outdated USB-B instead of a super common, super standard USB-A?
No. It's just a commercial reason... to push users to buy a 70 eur i-UX1 cable that, by the way, doesn't work with lighting devices..
I get that you're miffed because you can't just take the cord that came with your iPad, stick the USB A end (which is designed to go into either a USB Host or USB power adapter, not into a USB peripheral device) into the DGX-660, and be up and running without having to buy anything extra.

But you are 100% incorrect about Yamaha being able to choose a USB A port for connecting to a USB Host instead of a USB B port, and you are directing your anger and frustration at the wrong company.

Consider what would have happened if Yamaha had used a USB A port for connecting to a USB Host. USB Host devices (normally) use a USB A port of one size or other on their end (Apple's iOS devices being a notable exception). So you go to the store and buy a DGX-660, take it home, decide to connect it to your computer, and... what the heck? You can't connect it to your computer with one of the half dozen USB cables that you already have lying around your house, because apparently what you need is a special USB cable with an A plug on both ends! "That's crazy!" you shout as you go stomping off to the internet to special order a USB B to USB A adapter so you can convert the B end of your standard USB cable into a second A end.

Now consider what would have happened if someone besides Apple-- say, Microsoft-- had decided to use a proprietary connection port and not provide any USB ports, thus requiring everyone to go out and buy special adapters and interfaces that would go from something else (such as USB) to Microsoft's proprietary connection port. The world would be outraged! "Microsoft is evil! Microsoft is bad! Microsoft just wants to force everybody to have to buy special interfaces to go from industry standard connections to their own proprietary connection!"

(Actually, Barnes & Noble did put a proprietary connection port on their Nook tablets, similar to the way that Apple did with the iPad, and guess what? Some people bitched about it.)

But it wasn't Microsoft that did it, it was Apple, so everyone directs their anger and frustration at the "stupid" companies like Yamaha who made products that have industry-standard connections (such as USB), which means the only way to connect an iPad to those products is to go out and spend money on a special interface. Why do you think Apple had to-- had to-- create the Camera Connection Kit? And why do you think it's called a "Camera Connection Kit" instead of a "Special Kit for Connecting to Yamaha's Keyboards"? Why don't you try to connect your camera, or camcorder, or Casio keyboard, or Novation controller, etc., to your iPad? Guess what-- you won't be able to, at least not without buying a Camera Connection Kit or some other interface.

EDIT: PS-- Just to be clear, I'm not criticizing you for feeling and thinking as you do; and I've been angry and frustrated many times, and I know it isn't a good feeling. Also, I'm not anti-Apple. I don't own a Mac, but I'm flirting with the idea of buying a Mac Mini so I can compile my own apps for the iPad-- and the Mac would take a standard USB cable for connecting to my Yamahas just like a Windows or Linux PC does. I do have an iPad that I enjoy very much and use daily-- although, like you, I was less than thrilled about having to buy a Camera Connection Kit so I could connect my Yamaha keyboards to it. And I don't necessarily think that Apple's proprietary connections are a bad thing, as long as they offer some definite technical benefit besides forcing people like you and I to buy special adapters for connecting things to the iPad. But neither do I virtually worship Apple the way some people seem to, so I'm not afraid to state the obvious-- that the reason people like you and I must buy special interfaces or adapters for connecting our Yamaha keyboards to our iPads is because of Apple's decisions, and not because of Yamaha's decisions.
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Re: Midi dgx 660

Unread post by PierP » Mon Feb 27, 2017 9:29 am

parametric wrote: In all likelyhood, pointed out by "an accountant"....
parametric
I'm afraid my english knowledge is far from letting me understand the philosophical meaning of your last post :) (i'm NOT kidding, I'm just missing the meaning of it)
My was a simple technical issue (likely) done on purpose for commercial reasons. I can't see any connection with Wall Street Crash and BLACK x-days.

Anyway, thanks for the support, I really appreciated you prompt replies

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Re: Midi dgx 660

Unread post by parametric » Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:25 am

Sorry for that Pierp,

I was being sarcastic to help make the point (pretending I didn't KNOW that it was (in all likelyhood) an Accountant that "reminded" Yamaha, that users would have to buy something extra in order to connect) - and so to "Leave the socket ALONE" . . . .

I'm not against making a fair profit on a decent product - but I do object to having my intelligence insulted with these "slightly underhand" attempts to extract more money.

IIRC - The Cassette Data-Lead used to come WITH the DX21 (for instance).

Cynical old ME - guesses the same "Accountant" pointed out that it should be left OUT of the box with the DGX-660 :roll:

I used the market crash scenario, merely to emphasise that we are (often) not as wise as we think we are - especially when trying to predict "The Future".

In other words - DON'T turn ALL into profit. (Tell the Accountants to "sod-off") and leave something in the pot IN CASE something bad happens . . . .

This is NOT being inefficient - it is being sensible. THEN you have the means (money) to "ride it out" . . . 8)

Your grasp of English is very good, Pierp, especially if it is your second language . . . . .

My knowledge of Italian is largely confined to the Musical expressions terms found in Music Scores - Allegro, pianissimo etc . . . :wink:

I tend to be sarcastic and facetious in my answers and use a lot of colloquialisms to make my points . . . (which makes it harder for non-native speakers)

Largely because, I have lived a long time :lol: :lol: and have often "heard it all before" - and, well, It's just my style - I suppose :wink:

The fact is, I WELL understood the point you were making, and your exasperation at the situation . . .

All the Best

parametric
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Re: Midi dgx 660

Unread post by SeaGtGruff » Mon Feb 27, 2017 9:15 pm

PierP, please do keep us updated on whether a female-type-A-to-male-type-B adapter works for connecting to an iPad without having to buy a Camera Connection Kit, as that would be very helpful for other people to know.
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Re: Midi dgx 660

Unread post by PierP » Mon Mar 06, 2017 4:57 pm

SeaGtGruff wrote:PierP, please do keep us updated on whether a female-type-A-to-male-type-B adapter works for connecting to an iPad without having to buy a Camera Connection Kit, as that would be very helpful for other people to know.
With "pleasure" : :)

f***ing cheap female-type-A-to-male-type-B: NOT working

f***ing expensive piece-of-wire-boldly-called-Camera-Connection-kit: working


:mrgreen:

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Re: Midi dgx 660

Unread post by parametric » Mon Mar 06, 2017 5:50 pm

Comment 1 - Why am I not Phuqing Surprised :twisted:

Comment 2 - (From Apple Marketing) - Why buy a cheap solution - when an expensive one will do just as well? :evil:

Comment 3 - Standards are wonderful things - that's why there are SO MANY of them . . . :lol: :lol: :lol:

parametric 8)
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Watch out now! take care, BEWARE of the greedy leaders! They'll take you where you should not go - (George Harrison)

IT'S TRUE - "MONEY TALKS" - TO ME, IT MOSTLY SAYS "GOODBYE" ;-)
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Re: Midi dgx 660

Unread post by SeaGtGruff » Mon Mar 06, 2017 6:46 pm

@parametric: Yeah, I'm not surprised, either. :(

@PierP: Even though I was afraid that would be the case, it's good to know for certain, so thank you for the update. And I'm glad you finally got connected, even if it cost a good bit more than you were hoping it would. I guess the days when you could buy a new device (such as an iPad or Nook) and expect the box to include a variety of extra doo-dads (such as interfaces for connecting a camera or other USB device, or for connecting to a TV's HDMI input) are long gone.
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Re: Midi dgx 660

Unread post by grimep » Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:04 am

Hi, sorry to hijack an old thread. I'm considering getting a DGX-660 for my son but first want to be sure the extra bells and whistles over a say P115 are worth it. I want to know if all the fancy features that are demonstrated on various youtube videos (eg downloading song/midi data, interfacing with Yamaha iOS apps, hooking up to a computer sequencer etc) of this keyboard will actually work when I get it home.

So I've a question about the above discussion on problems connecting an iPad to a DGX-660, and having to buy expensive adaptors. I thought one of the selling points of the 660 is it has wireless connectivity to iOS devices - so why the talk about the expensive cable??

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Re: Midi dgx 660

Unread post by parametric » Thu Jul 13, 2017 12:11 pm

Hi grimep - and welcome to the forums . . .

I can't comment on iPad interfacing - as I don't own one, but I would urge you to consider adding the Yamaha LP7 Pedal unit . . https://www.rimmersmusic.co.uk/yamaha-l ... oard-p2521

The supplied small FC5 (£31) works fine - as will the dearer Piano-pedal style pedal - FC-4 (£51.99) - ( I have one myself), but the problem with both these is that you end up chasing them round the floor when using them . . .

The LP7 Unit makes it more like a real Piano and will alleiviate the frustration, and at £60, is a bargain - plus you get the "other two" pedals (Y) . .

I offer this advice, being primarily a Piano Player myself . . . .

ATB

parametric
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BRAND NEW DSDD (720k) FLOPPY DISKS FOR SALE - http://www.yamahaforums.co.uk/forum/vie ... =22&t=9217

Watch out now! take care, BEWARE of the greedy leaders! They'll take you where you should not go - (George Harrison)

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Re: Midi dgx 660

Unread post by Saul » Thu Jul 13, 2017 1:30 pm

grimep wrote:
Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:04 am
Hi, sorry to hijack an old thread. I'm considering getting a DGX-660 for my son but first want to be sure the extra bells and whistles over a say P115 are worth it. I want to know if all the fancy features that are demonstrated on various youtube videos (eg downloading song/midi data, interfacing with Yamaha iOS apps, hooking up to a computer sequencer etc) of this keyboard will actually work when I get it home.

So I've a question about the above discussion on problems connecting an iPad to a DGX-660, and having to buy expensive adaptors. I thought one of the selling points of the 660 is it has wireless connectivity to iOS devices - so why the talk about the expensive cable??
Hi grimep and a very warm welcome to the forum :)

Never have to worry about jumping in on someones thread here. If it's relevant then it's fine.

Ok so as with many things 'Yamaha' they don't normally get down to the nuts and bolts in their demo videos...neither do other manufacturers so they are not alone in that but to clarify. The 'wireless' bit is an "option" not built in. In other words you need to buy the Yamaha wireless adapter in order to use that function.

So yes you do need what is known as the Apple Camera Connection kit which connects as in the diagram below:

Screen Shot 2017-07-13 at 13.19.46.png
This does unfortunately bump the price up by about £35 unless of course you already have the adapter.

As for the other things they show in the videos you have to keep in mind these vids are designed to "sell the product" so always assume that things are not quite as straightforward as they might appear.

The best place to get a handle on what you really need to do is the user manual which you can download from:
https://uk.yamaha.com/en/products/music ... oduct-tabs

Hope that helps but please do ask if you need more info.
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Re: Midi dgx 660

Unread post by grimep » Thu Jul 13, 2017 4:10 pm

Thanks for the reply Saul, yes I've already downloaded a user manual, haven't got round to reading yet. Ah, didn't realize you had to buy an extra widget, from watching several promotional videos I got the impression that wireless was something that the 660 gained over the 650.

As we're an Android/Windows household it would probably make more sense to just hook it up to a laptop with the usb cable and use a PC based sequencer. Shame to miss out on what might be some good tablet apps for kids to learn with though

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Re: Midi dgx 660

Unread post by Saul » Thu Jul 13, 2017 4:26 pm

Yes it's one of those sad facts of life that even though Android devices outnumber Apple by a HUGE margin developers still seem hell bent on only providing apps for the iPad/iPhone. Perhaps it's some misplaced lifestyle thing? Me and my wife have iPads and iPhones and I use an iMac for just about everything but I would't say we are your typical Apple fans. We both have PC's aw well by the way ;)

I'm sure there is some sensible explanation as to why it is you can't connect an iPad to most things without the need for the "Apple Camera Kit"

I had to purchase one of those when I was reviewing the Yamaha MX MkII because in order to use the FM Essentials app they made for it you needed that little £39 bit of plastic...which of course Yamaha don't supply so anyone without it who was thinking they could use the FM Essentials app would have been highly disappointed. :cry:

Oddly enough Yamaha supply Cubase Ai with the MX and most of their other gear but not with the DGX. I suppose they don't see that market segment as hooking things up to their PC base DAW...which again is odd given that they own Steinberg and they are promoting iOS connection for it. Perhaps they think you won't need it because of the built in audio/midi recorder..who knows?
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Re: Midi dgx 660

Unread post by SeaGtGruff » Thu Jul 13, 2017 7:04 pm

I haven't double-checked the DGX-660 manual yet, so the following are just general comments:

(1) Regarding wireless connectivity, there are different kinds based on the type of data being transmitted, so just because a keyboard has a wireless feature doesn't mean it will be able to connect wirelessly for a specific purpose. For instance, several Yamaha keyboards have a wireless networking ability that lets them connect to a local network wirelessly, similarly to the way other devices (laptops, tablets, phones, printers, etc.) can connect to networks wirelessly. I believe these types of connections can be used to pass files back and forth between the keyboard and other computers on the network, but they cannot be used to stream MIDI data. I don't know whether any of Yamaha's keyboards have wireless MIDI built in yet, but Yamaha does make two Bluetooth wireless MIDI adapters, one for regular (5-pin DIN) MIDI and the other for USB-MIDI.

(2) Regarding the cost of the Camera Connection Kit, the one that I bought a few years ago came with two different adapters-- one for connecting USB devices and the other for plugging in data cards. When you consider that the kit lets you connect all sorts of devices to your iPad, it seems like a more justifiable purchase. Of course, it would have been nice if Apple had included those adapters with the iPad rather than selling them separately, but that's the business model that Apple chose-- sell the device by itself, then sell every little extra doo-dad that you need for the device separately for a hefty bit of coin. It isn't Yamaha's fault that you can't simply connect the DGX-660 or other Yamaha keyboard to an iPad using a standard USB cable-- it's Apple's fault.
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Re: Midi dgx 660

Unread post by Saul » Thu Jul 13, 2017 7:27 pm

SeaGtGruff wrote:
Thu Jul 13, 2017 7:04 pm
It isn't Yamaha's fault that you can't simply connect the DGX-660 or other Yamaha keyboard to an iPad using a standard USB cable-- it's Apple's fault.
It's probably a licensing issue whereby if a manufacturer wants to make use of a usb/lightening connection they either go down the camera connection kit route as in this case or pay a fee to enable the keyboard or whatever it is to connect directly.

Actually that makes sense now I think about it because Apple regularly disable third party connectors through iOS updates. The only reliable connection is through Apples own kit. Knowing Apple I bet there is a hefty licence fee involved!
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Re: Midi dgx 660

Unread post by SeaGtGruff » Fri Jul 14, 2017 12:52 am

I just had a look at the DGX-660 manual.

It doesn't have Bluetooth wireless MIDI, so if you want to stream MIDI back and forth with an iPad using a Bluetooth connection you'll need to buy and use Yamaha's Bluetooth USB-MIDI adapter, the UD-BT01. My understanding is that this adapter will work with any Yamaha keyboard that has a USB-MIDI (USB TO HOST) port.

On the other hand, it does have the ability to use a wireless LAN connection, but there's a catch-- you still need to buy Yamaha's wireless USB LAN adapter, the UD-WL01. In other words, when the manual says that the DGX-660 can use a wireless LAN connection, it simply means that the keyboard's OS or firmware can be set up to connect to a LAN over WiFi, but it doesn't have a built-in WiFi connection. It should be noted that the UD-WL01 adapter cannot be used with any model whose firmware doesn't support a LAN connection over WiFi. And as far as I know, the other models that support a LAN connection over WiFi also require the UD-WL01 adapter and don't include one in the box.

I'm guessing that the Camera Connection Kit is actually the cheapest way to connect to an iPad.
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