ESP is still not optimized.

[ChrisDuncan]

It is the never ending updates and the constant requirement to restart your machine, when it then starts downloading more.

Man, don't get me started. I only moved from Windows 7 to 10 at gunpoint, because Cubase stopped supporting it. And this is the one thing that makes me want to take a magnet to every Windows computer I own. Because I'm an old guy, I remember the days when I owned a computer and it only did what I told it to do. Now Microsoft owns my computer and they do whatever they want with it. A box that was working perfectly fine yesterday suddenly breaks today because of yet another unasked for, unwanted, expletive-deleted update. The single most destructive thing you can do to destabilize your computer is install or update software. Now my operating system does it almost daily.

And let's not forget that sofware that runs on today's OS will, at some point, not work on a future OS version. So even if I am happy running Ventura for the next couple of years I will inevitably find software that doe not want to run.

Yeah, I hear you. Honestly, if it wasn't for Cubase, plus them pulling the plug on their anti virus stuff, I'd still be running Windows 7, for no other reason than the automatic updates.

[Derek]

It is the never ending updates and the constant requirement to restart your machine, when it then starts downloading more.

Man, don't get me started. I only moved from Windows 7 to 10 at gunpoint, because Cubase stopped supporting it. And this is the one thing that makes me want to take a magnet to every Windows computer I own. Because I'm an old guy, I remember the days when I owned a computer and it only did what I told it to do. Now Microsoft owns my computer and they do whatever they want with it. A box that was working perfectly fine yesterday suddenly breaks today because of yet another unasked for, unwanted, expletive-deleted update. The single most destructive thing you can do to destabilize your computer is install or update software. Now my operating system does it almost daily.

Get a license for WIN10PRO (you can get OEM licenses for around £10 to £20) and you are back in control on when to update. Even the Home edition gives you more control than it used to if you set it up. But that is one reason why I like OS X - an update every few months if that

[ChrisDuncan]

I do run pro, and while there are more controls about when and where, there's still no big red switch to just disable the updates. You can defer to a degree, but eventually they're going to insist that you update. Also, since they can update the operating system at will, they can turn those things on or off any time they like. I eventually accepted the fact that trying to avoid Windows updates was a battle I simply wasn't going to win.

Just watched Dom's video on moving to Mac and his setup sounded very enticing until I looked it up and saw that it cost $8,000.

Even so, my dev boxes have to be Windows because that's my career. I also have around 10 Windows boxes running in various rooms for various reasons, and it's nice to be able to rdp into them. If I wanted to switch over to Mac I'd have to mortgage the house. MS is a pain in the posterior, but for me it's just the cost of doing business.

[Saul]

You definitely do not need to spend anything close to $8000 to get a good music setup using a mac. The 2020 Mac Mini with M1 chip and 16GB of memory can be picked up for around $450 and that will do everything you could want it to do.

And here is a perfect example of what I mean. Bear in mind, this guy is running the 8GB version!

[sonic2000gr]

I have the M2 8GB RAM/512GB SSD, and while I am no pro in Cubase (trying to relearn the darned thing since my ST days) it handles my Montage wonderfully both for audio and midi sequencing. And I have no trouble using VSTs, Halion and Korg's Wavestate/Opsix with it. Plus it really takes zero space, is silent and really you could just drop it in a backpack and have a powerful synth with you wherever you go. As long as you have a screen to connect at your destination.

Added bonus: The underlying UNIX-based operating system handles audio much better, no ASIO stuff needed, you can really use the built in sound card (if nothing else is available) with very little latency. That alone makes it worthwhile.

[ChrisDuncan]

You definitely do not need to spend anything close to $8000 to get a good music setup using a mac.

One of the things Dom mentioned was the fact that Apple gear tends to hold its resale value better.

[Derek]

I do run pro, and while there are more controls about when and where, there's still no big red switch to just disable the updates. You can defer to a degree, but eventually they're going to insist that you update. Also, since they can update the operating system at will, they can turn those things on or off any time they like. I eventually accepted the fact that trying to avoid Windows updates was a battle I simply wasn't going to win.

Just watched Dom's video on moving to Mac and his setup sounded very enticing until I looked it up and saw that it cost $8,000.

Even so, my dev boxes have to be Windows because that's my career. I also have around 10 Windows boxes running in various rooms for various reasons, and it's nice to be able to rdp into them. If I wanted to switch over to Mac I'd have to mortgage the house. MS is a pain in the posterior, but for me it's just the cost of doing business.

At the end of the day, it's a balance isn't it? You can turn the Windows Update Service off if you really want no updates at all, there are even apps to help do that instead of diving to dive into the services applet. I used to run one of those when on Home, but since I upgraded to Pro, I have had no issues of a forced update. I do like to keep the OS reasonably up to date but I do not want updates when I am in the middle of something (like prepping for a gig or at the gig). So on balance the controls available work for me.

[Saul]

One of the things Dom mentioned was the fact that Apple gear tends to hold its resale value better.

It tends to hold value longer than PC gear mostly because it is "Apple". There is a certain "lifestyle" element to the whole business. However prices have been coming down on the used market lately. Not dropping dramatically but certainly I have noticed a shift. This is in part due to the switch from Intel to Apple's M series processors. The intel gear has less value now because it is seen as a dead end as far as OS updates are concerned. Personally I would not buy another intel based Mac.

The M1 series are dropping in price simply because there are a lot more mac users out there now. But even so, a 2020 Mac Mini M1 will still likely cost around $450. A new Mac Mini M2 with 8GB ram costs $599. However when the Mac Mini M1 launched in 2020 I think it was priced at $549 so going by this example it has lost roughly $100 in just over three years. You would probably get another two or three OS updates out of a Mac Mini M1 so that would take you to around 2027 before you would have to consider an upgrade. By which time the M3 will have dropped to todays price for an M1.

Also bear in mind that you are not paying for the OS updates. And by updates I mean new versions of the OS. You also get GarageBand included, which although not as complex as Cubase or Logic is still a great way to get up and running with a DAW plus a huge range of sounds out of the box.

That's my sales pitch done

[ChrisN]

Had to laugh to myself and thought once again, this was apropos and some may enjoy a “blast from the past”. YT recommended this to me today. Besides it fooling me for a second and thinking John Wetton had been resurrected, it’s obvious what computer system Geoff Downes likes.


In regards to Windows update being a PITA, I agree and one reason I shy from getting sucked into fixing others people’s (Family and non tech savvy friends) systems anymore. Especially if it appears they have a virus of some sort and it’s probably going to end up in a reinstall. For myself I learned to not let any system go too long without being started so there isn’t a bunch of updates waiting for me. Again as Derek mentioned you have much more freedom with Pro to control this feature. Even Home lets you decide when to install. Also, with a reasonable fast machine it’s not such a big deal. Granted it is frustrating at times. Another thing that isn’t a bad idea is disconnecting from the internet and disabling networking when doing music projects.

I know this is almost a cliche’ now, but it is its popularity and being so ubiquitous that makes it a target for unscrupulous scumbags attacking the platform on a continual basis. Many of these updates are closing holes or working around vulnerabilities that other platforms do not need to concern themselves.

As far as buying old used…no thanks. Besides I tend to have bad luck with used stuff. The idea of spending any money and going back in time on computer related stuff just doesn’t thrill me.

[vertig0spin]

I do run pro, and while there are more controls about when and where, there's still no big red switch to just disable the updates. You can defer to a degree, but eventually they're going to insist that you update. Also, since they can update the operating system at will, they can turn those things on or off any time they like. I eventually accepted the fact that trying to avoid Windows updates was a battle I simply wasn't going to win.

Just watched Dom's video on moving to Mac and his setup sounded very enticing until I looked it up and saw that it cost $8,000.

Even so, my dev boxes have to be Windows because that's my career. I also have around 10 Windows boxes running in various rooms for various reasons, and it's nice to be able to rdp into them. If I wanted to switch over to Mac I'd have to mortgage the house. MS is a pain in the posterior, but for me it's just the cost of doing business.

I'm in a similar setup situation, except I only have 4 Windows workstations & the only Pro version I run is on my work laptop and I don't touch that one for anything but work stuff.

I have 3 personal workstations, Win 11 Home, Win 7 and Win XP
Not to worry the Win 7 and XP are offline and not connected to anything, so basically it's my Windows 11 workstation that I need to keep patched and up to date.

I actually don't mind having my Windows 11 box patched monthly. For me it is very predictable since Microsoft always release their monthly patches on the 2nd Tuesday of every month...(and the odd month or so they might release an important out-of-band patch)
I actually like keeping my system as secure as possible, but then again I am in IT and part of my daily job is securing all Windows server systems within my company

Here's my monthly routine for on the 2nd Tues of every month:
- I receive an advance reminder in my Outlook calendar several days prior to the 2nd Tuesday of the month
- I backup my Windows 11 workstation to a portable USB disk using 'Veeam Agent for Microsoft Windows FREE' on the 'Monday' prior (10 minutes or less)
- I ensure all monthly WCU Windows Updates are installed Tuesday morning and reboot (10 min or less)

I've never had any issues with Windows 11 OS, and none with my DAW (Pro Tools) or any apps like SampleRobot, SoundMondo connectivity, Montage Connect, Yamaha Steinberg USB Driver, etc.

So for the 20 minutes a month it takes me to patch, to me it's not such a PITA, but instead provides a great level of comfort that my system is up to date, more secure and easily/quickly recoverable!
Most likely I will never switch to MAC, but that's just my personal preference!

[bobbybland]

Yamaha needs an open beta instead of the small circle of testers they currently have.

[neomad]

ESP sounds amazing... but... CPU consumption is extreme. Moreover, the lack of midi program change is a huge weakness... for live performers, PC is a must. Will keep waiting...

[StuartR]

I have no issues with ESP in Cubase on PC

"But it works on my box..."

ESP installed okay on my laptop, but I couldn't even run one instance without crackling and audio issues. It's an i7 with 16 gigs of memory, so while that's not a monster it should be tough enough. However, in fairness, this laptop was a regular user box that I just threw in front of the Kronos to get to Cubase, so I haven't done any tuning for audio.

I'm my case, once I disabled both the laptop battery ACPI driver and the default Intel graphics to only use the Nvidea GeForce, things worked without any audio hiccups.
YMMV

Stuart.

[sungho]

Even though it uses a 24-core CPU, it still produces pop noise. I only used 1 midi channel. This is still a beta version.

Sorry I was remiss not posting about this sooner. If you're running the ESP under Windows then you'll want (need) to optimize the Windows host machine to handle real-time audio.

Here are links to everything you'll need to accomplish this:

https://www.cantabilesoftware.com/glitchfree/

https://www.resplendence.com/download/LatencyMon.exe

I have a professional music system. I'm using an optimized PC. There is no problem even if you use 100 channels of EW OPUS.
Simultaneous playback of 200 NI Kontak channels works without a problem.
However, using ESP will result in poorer audio performance.
When I play a 1-channel EP patch that I created using 8 layers, the audio performance is overdone and click noise occurs.
Awaiting optimization.

[StuartR]

Personally, I've found that optimizing your power and performance settings, disabling ACPI battery driver (if you're using a laptop) and also disabling your built-in display driver in favor of a higher performance graphics card (or chipset) is sufficient. Putting your PC in Airplane mode while using the ESP may also help.