Why are so many people already dumping their Yamaha Montage M8x??

[davlippo7]

All great opinions thanks for sharing. I was like the poster who had money burning a hole and I looked hard at the Nord but the cost always made me look away. Yes if it's light and gigs great that's a plus.

I'm also not a piano man nor organ but I know it's important but wasn't a deciding M8x factor as I'm more of a synth enthusiast. I do like EPs and the PAT you can add to those. Can't really do much PAT to a piano though.

I've heard that rumor concerning the piano effects wasn't sure how that works if it's not a component of the piano engine and good point these are only AWM2 pianos (still works) and not some alternate technology like SCM like on the CP1. That high tech stuff is apparently expensive. Can VCM effectively trick out the piano and can the GEX/PAT make it work more realistically?

I've only tried one Nord in a guitar center long ago and wasn't blown away but then not sure what that was and I'm sure they are better now.

My YC has all of those pianos I think one of the OS updates added some of them including the C7, Hamburg, Nashville, Felt etc. I was considering selling it since I'm on the M8x and PA5x most of the time. The Iridium, Deckards Dream, Osmose and OB-X8m for other flavors but all very expensive to keep sitting around. I'm not an organ guy so although really fun on the YC I probably use it the least. I sold my Hydrasynth Deluxe, second Osmose, selling the CP1 just because piano is all it does. I will likely never buy the Nord but it seems popular for stage work.

It's been almost a full year since the last YC update so I can only assume Yamaha is done with that board and probably working on a YC2. Maybe with pipe and other organs that it should have had originally. Hopefully a separate synth engine too.

[synthRodriguez]

You basically need a Master's degree in computer science to be able to figure out how to use the Montage M to its full potential.

I had the OG Montage 8 and eventually sold it for this reason. I spent far more time trying to get it to do what I wanted than playing it. Even the simplest thing would take sometimes 20 minutes with the manual in front of me. Some of the voice routing and midi channel management stuff I never could get to work like I envisioned. After a few months of dealing with it I thought to myself "This is ridiculous." and let it go. No want another Yamaha machine that complex.

Sad too, Yamaha makes the best keyboard instruments of all the synth manufacturers, but my EX5 is about as complex a UI as I'm willing to deal with.

[ChrisDuncan]

Haven't been back to this thread in a few days, and there seems to be a few recurring themes. One is about the weight of the Mx8 making it unsuitable for gigging. I've noticed that a lot of guys may have an 88 at home and then bring a 6 or 7 keyboard to gigs because it's more portable. You don't get weighted action with most manufacturers, but life is ever the exercise in trade offs.

That said, and with apologies to real keyboard players everywhere, I came to keys late in life after decades of gigging as a singer / guitarist, and back in the days when dragging Marshall 4x12 cabs, 100 watt amps, etc. was still a thing. So perhaps I can be forgiven for having little sympathy for keyboard players who complain about the weight of their gear. Unless you have a real B3 and Leslie. I've moved those suckers, so feel free to whine if you gig with one. I'll whine right along with you.

The original post about people selling M8xs isn't really surprising. As a guitarist, I'm well acquainted with gear churn. I can't imagine it would be any different with keyboard players. "Ooh, look - shiny!" Buys product A. Then product B comes out. "Ooh, look - shiny!" Wife says no more budget, you want B, A's gotta go. Such is life as a musician with limited disposable income. Also, as one of the guys pointed out, many of these listings are dealers and / or part time gear traders. All of this makes me reluctant to accept the premise that people are "already dumping" a keyboard that stores can't even keep in stock. But of course, this is just my speculation since I obviously don't know what the facts really are.

As for Montage not being suited to the studio, I think that depends on the breed of studio rat that you happen to be. I own a Kronos, a Fantom and an M8x, and I don't gig anymore, so I'm the definition of a part time studio rat (we can discuss my preferences in cheese some other time). For me, all three are suited to studio use, because the centerpiece of my workflow is a DAW. The M has best in class support for Cubase, so that's a convenience for me, but when I want to do anything but sound design or play keys, I'm sitting in front of a computer, not a keyboard.

I suspect the intent of that observation was for people who want a DAW-less setup, and should that be the case I doubt they'd use a Montage, Kronos or Fantom since it's an afterthought for all three. From what I've seen, they typically go in the direction of hardware dedicated to a DAW-less workflow, such as an MPC or other such things. Consequently, I don't believe this is a shortcoming of the Montage, it's a weakness inherent in all flagship keyboards. For the many, many studio rats out there who are DAW-centric, the Montage is as good as any other keyboard in this regard, because you're going to use it as an instrument, not as a computer substitute.

As for computer science degrees, I've been paying the bills as a software developer since the late 80s (and I don't even have a degree!). Even in the 70s, everyone knew that if you were a keyboard player, you had to have some geek chops. It's an instrument with a lot of technical power, so every keyboard player on the planet should have RTFM tattooed on their posterior.

And yet, I've owned a Kronos (which currently has the geekiest, clumsiest interface of all synth manufacturers) since 2018, and I've done shockingly little geekness on it. I've been trying to build keyboard chops, so instead of doing sound design or sequencing on it, I've just pressed a button on a sound I liked and played the instrument. No degree required. I submit that it's even easier to do that with the latest Montage given all their UI and usability improvements. Just because there are a lot of things you can twiddle under the hood doesn't mean that you have to do so in order to enjoy playing the instrument. And I think that's what a lot of people tend to forget. At the end of the day, the Montage is not a computer. It's a musical instrument that just happens to speak computer as a second language.

And for those who don't yet know me, all the above is offered in the best of spirits, even when I make fun of my legitimate keyboard playing brethren for complaining about things like lugging around their tiny little keyboards.

[Shiva]

The mx8 weight 27 kilo, I guess if there is aluminium case that weight less than 5 kilo? 33 kilo, unless if you have to play on a Japanese temple at the top of the hill with a 250 meter stairs, still can be handle without necessary to be a musclor guy. Cement’s bag was 40 kilo the time of my father. But I don’t find in the market such case, even soft case are heavier.

[ChrisDuncan]

Maybe I'm old school, but back in the day when we needed to play at the top of a Japanese temple we just used two people to carry something instead of one.

[Shiva]

Maybe I'm old school, but back in the day when we needed to play at the top of a Japanese temple we just used two people to carry something instead of one.

Tomodachi, that is good, ne!

[ChrisDuncan]

Hai!

[Sharky]

The mx8 weight 27 kilo, I guess if there is aluminium case that weight less than 5 kilo? 33 kilo, unless if you have to play on a Japanese temple at the top of the hill with a 250 meter stairs, still can be handle without necessary to be a musclor guy. Cement’s bag was 40 kilo the time of my father. But I don’t find in the market such case, even soft case are heavier.

As I have posted previously there are probably numerous reasons why people sold their Yamaha M8x synth. I think one of the most likely reasons is because of the weight factor. It's basically a 'set it, and forget it' keyboard i.e. set it up somewhere and never move it from that spot. If they gigged it could be a drag because it's really heavy. Another reason is likely people were curious about the M8x with its new GEX keybed technology with the polyphonic aftertouch feature but then discovered you almost need a degree in computer science to figure out how to use it effectively as it was meant to be. There's a lot of deep menu diving and it can become very frustrating especially if you've never owned a Montage or one of the Motif series. I'm guessing most of the synth instrument designers and engineers at Yamaha don't play a keyboard instrument professionally. Therefore, the results can be counterintuitive to seasoned musicians and especially newbies who want a keyboard/synth that sounds fantastic but is also relatively easy to navigate and use efficiently without having to have a degree in mathematics or computer science. Thirdly, buyer's remorse. Some bought the M8x/M7/M6 thinking it would be leaps and bounds better than the original Montage but were perhaps disappointed especially considering the higher price point. I'm hoping the next iteration of the Montage (if there is one) will be much lighter for the 88-key version. The same could apply to the 76/61-key versions. There are new composite materials on the market that are much stronger than steel/aluminum and would make the current M8x @ 62 lbs. weigh in at around 36 lbs. or thereabouts. Time will tell whether Yamaha jumps on the bandwagon.

[Derek]

Or choose not to buy one in the first place. I “weighed” up the pros and cons of an M8x as opposed to an M7 upgrade to my Montage 7 and went with the M7 for cost, weight, size and portability benefits, which made the M7 a no brainer, as much as a flagship M8x would have been nice.

I also reasoned I have poly AT already in my rig in a much more portable format in the Hydrasynth Deluxe, and with my rig I can play any keyboard from any other.

If at some point Yamaha do an M7x I will consider upgrading

[ChrisDuncan]

If in fact there is a significant churn rate on the M8x (a premise that I'm not sure I accept), the fact that poly AT was offered only on the 88 could indeed be a factor. I've known a lot of keyboard players over the years who have never touched a piano or any weighted 88. If you're used to synth action but buy the M8x for the poly AT, the AT won't matter much if the weighted keys feel uncomfortable to you. I could see a return in that case.

I honestly doubt that weight is a factor in returns. Korg, Roland and Yamaha all offer weighed keys for 88, and synth for everything else. This is nothing new. A piano action 88 is always going to be the bulkiest and heaviest option. Anyone who's gigging would, like Derek, have taken that into consideration. And it's not like the weight is a secret - it's right there in the specs. Of all the different kinds of musicians, I would assume that keyboard players stand the best chance of being literate, and willing to read the specs. It's not like we're talking about drummers here.

My Kronos 88 is much heavier than my Fantom 7. I knew it was big and heavy when I bought it. Same with the M8x. And frankly, when I'm buying the absolute best of the best for a particular line, I don't want them skimping on quality or features to make it lighter and more portable. Make it the best it can be. If someone prefers a lighter or smaller form factor, there are two available. If you nonetheless still want the biggest and best, that's why roadies exist.

That said, I do see a case for wishing poly AT had been included on the 6 and 7. However, because part of the requirement is in the physical keybed, I don't know how much that would affect the price. So, if / when when Yamaha releases a 6 and 7 with poly AT, cue the people complaining about how it shouldn't be so expensive.

For me, a good weighted 88 is imperative, and I am continually pleased with the quality of the M8x in that regard. I'm glad they didn't cheap out on things to make it lighter. It's a high quality instrument, and I knew what I was getting when I bought it. For those who might have taken a chance on weighted action (or didn't read the weight specs before purchase), well, that's what taking a chance means. I find no fault with Yamaha on this particular matter.

And Sharky, no disrespect. We just see things differently, but it's all in good fun.

[Derek]

If in fact there is a significant churn rate on the M8x (a premise that I'm not sure I accept), the fact that poly AT was offered only on the 88 could indeed be a factor. I've known a lot of keyboard players over the years who have never touched a piano or any weighted 88. If you're used to synth action but buy the M8x for the poly AT, the AT won't matter much if the weighted keys feel uncomfortable to you. I could see a return in that case.

Agreee. I forgot to say that that was another reason. I am no fan of fully weighted as I grew up on Yamaha semi weighted. So the Hydrasynth PolyTouch is just the ticket for me.

[anotherscott]

One more thought about this... I would not be surprised if *all* new keyboards had return rates higher than they were, say, 10 or 20 years ago. Back then, more people could go to a store and try something out before they bought. Now often the only way to get your hands on something to try it out is to order it. And no matter how much you watch youtube videos or read manuals, some aspects of the instrument are always going to be subjective and must be experienced first hand.

Interestingly, though, one of the most subjective things about any board is the feel of the action... but uncommonly, pretty much every reaction I've read regarding the GEX action has been positive! I mean if you look at all the current hammer actions from Roland or Korg, or in other portable Yamahas, while some are widely liked, I don't think I've seen any one of them come as close to universally praised as the GEX.

[MontageUser]

Well I bought mine in January and still love it.

It will take me years to get through half of its capabilities. I'm an accordionist by trade, so all of my experience is with light, fast keyboards.

I work out arrangements on the M8x and dabble in sound creation because it's fun. I love the keybed and it's a welcome relief from small light keys I spend 80% of my time on.

I wouldn't think of selling it. It sits in my studio so weight is a non-issue. Does everything I wanted so no complaints here.

[ChrisDuncan]

Interestingly, though, one of the most subjective things about any board is the feel of the action... but uncommonly, pretty much every reaction I've read regarding the GEX action has been positive! I mean if you look at all the current hammer actions from Roland or Korg, or in other portable Yamahas, while some are widely liked, I don't think I've seen any one of them come as close to universally praised as the GEX.

The first thing I do with any new keyboard of this type is play piano, and I have to say that I was really impressed with the GEX. It was a significant improvement over the Kronos, which I also love. In addition to the physical feel and responsiveness of the keybed, the depth of parts / elements in the Montage, both original and M, gives me much more from the pianos because there are more velocity layers, etc. to respond to what the keybed gives them.

I haven't played the 88 on the Fantom. It might be a great keybed as well, but I have a hard time warming up to the modeled pianos. And in fairness, the Kronos is pretty old tech at this point, so it's not really a fair comparison. But of course, none of that matters when I sit down to play the M8x. I think the praise is well deserved.

[vertig0spin]

Or choose not to buy one in the first place. I “weighed” up the pros and cons of an M8x as opposed to an M7 upgrade to my Montage 7 and went with the M7 for cost, weight, size and portability benefits, which made the M7 a no brainer, as much as a flagship M8x would have been nice.

If at some point Yamaha do an M7x I will consider upgrading

It really does come down to individual user case. My most important requirement is 88 weighted keys for piano playing. As you mentioned, cost, weight, size and portability definitely are important factors for many people, but as others have said, perhaps some people saw PAT & jumped on board without realizing how much the weight might factor in, until after the fact..!? Perhaps an additional factor for some people might be the steep learning curve and complexity of programming sounds & other functionality!?

But I totally see the value in the point you make regarding weight, size and portability of the M7 (& the cost for many people as well ). If cost wasn't a factor for me, I would upgrade my Montage 8 to an M8x in a heartbeat. But also if cost wasn't a factor, I would buy a second M7 mainly just for gigging (but I would also likely use it for playing/recording synth solo/organ type sounds), because I think the M7 is THE perfect size and definitely a better weight for lugging around & playing live gigs!
However, because cost is a major factor for me, if I were in the market for a new synth (and it would be just a single synth), I would still choose the M8x over the M7 because of the keybed action & size, and I'd just continue to use a good quality handtruck/dolly setup for lugging it to gigs.


To your last point, it will indeed be interesting to see if Yamaha do release an M7x/M6x version at some point in the future..!?
If they were to do so, would it contain the GEX keybed or would it be a completely new PAT capable keybed with closer action to the M6/M7..!?