Confused Beginner. Appreciate some help..

[amwilburn]

It seems like everything is pointing towards the SX for my playing style (sometimes chords for singing and sometimes whole song with melody line). The reason why I'm holding back (as superficial as it sounds) is because somehow the MODX & Montage seem to have a a better 'rep', more professional, as compared to arrangers keyboards despite me not knowing if I'll ever use a single function of the MODX/Montage.

This is kind of like people telling you you should really buy a manual transmission car because that's what serious/professional drivers prefer. But then you have to learn how to drive a manual transmission car, and in the end, may decide you'd have preferred the automatic after all.

That is an oddly accurate comparison!

But yes,
Do you want to do this: (pure synths, which is really cool in its own right)


Or this (my youtube channel is just endless covers, but yes you *could* compose music on an arranger as well if you liked. Like Leonard Cohen

The funny camera angle is because I didn't have the energy to clean my desk, or the wall behind me (missing kb's so it looked funny) so I just titled the camera to be as close to me as possible to crop viewing window.

Be aware, that the Montage/Modx (same sounds, as already pointed out) pianos are superior to even any Clavinova, that while the Montage6/7 keys are superior to pretty much any other semiweighted key out there, the modx6/7 keys are not... they feel just like PSRE keys. (so not even as good as my PSRs970 keys, and a far cry from the Genos keys). Meanwhile, the Korg Italian arrangers (PA4x/Pa5x) keys and build quality are right up there with the Montage. Yes, arrangers.

Mark

[RoundedPlants]

I guess I know where the logic behind this is.

Correct me if I'm wrong but probably most professionals perform in a full band and hence arrangers are redundant ? Only time I've seen arrangers used are in cruise ship performances, etc.

And the fact that montage, modx, cp are used more on stage lead to this 'perception' ?

But like I mentioned I don't gig, don't have a band to play with.. Mainly play just for fun for myself, maybe some recordings to post on socials and play for kids at home, I'm guessing SX would probably yield the most fun for songs like Baby Shark

Thank you guys for the enlightenment. Took me awhile to finally decide that the MODX and Montage is probably not for me. CK still worth the consideration but likely SX would be the best 'addition' to my CLP.

This forum has such a good culture and everyone is just so helpful without being judgmental nor sarcastic !

[sonic2000gr]

I guess I know where the logic behind this is.

Correct me if I'm wrong but probably most professionals perform in a full band and hence arrangers are redundant ? Only time I've seen arrangers used are in cruise ship performances, etc.

And the fact that montage, modx, cp are used more on stage lead to this 'perception' ?

This could well be a justification, but I think there is more to it. Probably snobbery starts because when it comes to arrangers there are so many low end, low cost ones, designed for simpler uses, education and schools and just learning to play on. And that is really a good thing!
I started learning and attending Yamaha's music school back in 89 with a PSS-480. It was an amazingly good arranger for the price. Could I have started with a synth? Like e.g. SY-77? Not really. It cost more than 10 times more. Would it make any sense for someone touching the keys for the first time? No. Would it actually support the lessons? No, no built in rhythms, no accompaniment. I am so happy cheap arrangers exist!

But like I mentioned I don't gig, don't have a band to play with.. Mainly play just for fun for myself, maybe some recordings to post on socials and play for kids at home, I'm guessing SX would probably yield the most fun for songs like Baby Shark

Thank you guys for the enlightenment. Took me awhile to finally decide that the MODX and Montage is probably not for me. CK still worth the consideration but likely SX would be the best 'addition' to my CLP.

This is a wise decision I would say. And if you ever wish to try the synthesis side, just get a small, inexpensive but with plenty knobs synth. Maybe you will enjoy it. And you already have the master keyboard to drive it if need be.

This forum has such a good culture and everyone is just so helpful without being judgmental nor sarcastic !

We have all kinds of toys, and like all of them!

[RoundedPlants]

We have all kinds of toys, and like all of them!

Just out of curiosity, of all your keyboards listed in your signature. Which gets the most play-time ?

[sonic2000gr]

Just out of curiosity, of all your keyboards listed in your signature. Which gets the most play-time ?

The Montage and the piano are used daily.

MODX is like Montage so I doesn't make much sense to set it up near Montage. I use it sometimes when I go to friends houses, otherwise it lives in its bag.
GAIA2 is what I use to teach myself synthesis, it's very good in this respect. Also the keybed is great and overall build and sound quality. Only drawback, it's only 3 octaves. I play with this usually on weekends.
The JX-08, well I will probably sell this. It's very small portable and battery powered but the sound signature just does not align with me really.
TR-8S and SP-404MKII are not really used that much.

[pjd]

The "professional" vs. "amateur" keyboard discussion usually devolves into a quasi-religious flame war, so I avoid it.

More important are your personal musical goals and finding an instrument which best matches those goals.

I wouldn't play a 400 yard hole on a golf course with only a putter in the bag. Then again, my kid and I have done some crazy Happy Gilmore stuff...

The main characteristics that I grant to "professional" are things like XLR outputs to hit a PA, in-built power supply (no wall-wart to lose) and rugged mechanical design to survive life in the back of a van, etc.

Yikes, I'm slipping down the slippery slope...

All the best -- pj

[RoundedPlants]

Hi All,
Pulled out the following spec from Yamaha website.

Tone Generator (Polyphony)
CK61: AWM2 (128)
PSR SX720: AWM Stereo Sampling (128)
MODX6+: AWM2, FM-X (128+64)

I see many demo of the MODX6+ showing that a CFX Stage can have up to 4 parts combined sound. Does it mean that the piano would sound best on Modx as CK61 only can layer up to 3 parts ?

Questions out of curiosity:

1. Which piano sound will sound the best ? Will they sound identical cause it's all AWM?
2. Which saxophone will sound the most realistic? Is it SX720 cause of S.Art2?

Thank you for all for ur experienced insights once again!

[anotherscott]

I see many demo of the MODX6+ showing that a CFX Stage can have up to 4 parts combined sound. Does it mean that the piano would sound best on Modx as CK61 only can layer up to 3 parts ?

The differentiation is not really about how many Parts, but rather, how many Elements.

A MODX AWM2 Part can have up to 8 Elements. One of the CFX pianos uses 18 Elements split among 4 Parts.

I would say that an AWM2 part in the CK is almost certainly also limited to 8 elements, but I couldn't swear that they didn't expand on that... the Montage M is capable of having more than 8 elements in a single Part. But I have a hard time imagining they would put that tech into the CK.

But even that doesn't really get to the question of which sounds "better." For example, it's possible that your favorite piano sound in either of these might be the single-part S700, in which case, it would probably be the same. But then also, the MODX has a wider variety of different pianos available (including ones you can download into it). So, yeah, it seems to me that, from a sound perspective, the MODX is stronger for piano than the CK... though not necessarily for the reason you thought.

Which saxophone will sound the most realistic? Is it SX720 cause of S.Art2?

Probably, because of those automatic articulations that are added based on how you play.

[sonic2000gr]

The MODX+ polyphony, is like the Montage (128+128).
The previous MODX had 128 + 64. Not that it makes much of a difference in this discussion.

I see many demo of the MODX6+ showing that a CFX Stage can have up to 4 parts combined sound. Does it mean that the piano would sound best on Modx as CK61 only can layer up to 3 parts ?

Not necessarily. However you will get plenty of pianos on the MODX+, and needless to say they are infinitely tweakable. I think you are right to believe they will sound somewhat similar as these are based on the same AWM technology and probably share samples too.

How well they sound will also depend on how well you can play them with the keypads supplied with each instrument. Even subtle differences will count. The MODX+ keybed is not too bad for me, though it wouldn't be a favorite for piano playing.

[RoundedPlants]

I thought it was the parts that made a difference like the CFX Concert below has 4 "parts" layered as shown whereas on the CK its only a single 'part' for the CFX stereo ? Correct me if I'm wrong pardon the ignorance.



How about saxophone and strings between CK & MODX ? Anyone compared the difference before ? There is a guy comparing on YouTube but it's hard to really tell with my airpods.

[anotherscott]

I thought it was the parts that made a difference

The Elements are the things that make sounds, the Parts themselves don't make sounds per se, they are essentially "containers" for the Elements. That's why I said "the differentiation is not really about how many Parts, but rather, how many Elements." So yes, on the MODX CFX piano, the Parts make a difference... but they make a difference *because* they provide a way to go beyond 8 Elements. On a Montage M, you can go beyond 8 Elements in a single Part (a new feature that the original Montage and the MODX series don't have). One Part in a Montage M can have more Elements than 4 parts in a MODX! So the advantage is coming, not from the number of Parts, but from the number of Elements (which are contained in the Parts).

Watch this video, starting at 1:24, it shows exactly how the 4 Parts are used in that MODX CFX piano, and should make this a lot more clear.



Getting back to your earlier question about whether the MODX piano is "better," as I said, part of that will depend on which pianos you like, i.e. the MODX has more different pianos in it (or available to download into it), but that may not matter if what you like best is one of the ones in the CK anyway. But also, even comparing CFX on CK to CFX on MODX, there are differences, even comparing the CK version to the single-part MODX version. They are programmed differently. I noticed you can get the key-off noise demonstrated in that video even on a 1-part CFX sound on the MODX, but the CK versions of the CFX don't have the key-off noise. OTOH, the CK CFX is better sounding than the MODX version if you're playing in mono. So which sounds better? It depends.

How about saxophone and strings between CK & MODX ?

MODX has a much greater variety of sax and string sounds. plus the AF functions that can allow you to play them more expressively by invoking alternate articulations.

As a whole, I'd say CK is largely better for organ and EPs, MODX probably better for everything else. But sound isn't everything. The big advantage of the CK isn't in the sounds, but in the operation. It's easier to assemble and manipulate your splits/layers and apply basic editing (effects, EQ, basic filter and envelope settings). It has speakers. It runs on batteries. It's smaller and lighter. It's just simpler and more fun. But it's much more limited. The MODX is much more capable, and mostly (but not always) better sounding, if for no other reason than having far more sounds and variations to choose from, and the ability to deeply edit them to taste.

[pjd]

I'll try to add to anotherscott without creating confusion. He is really on top of things, BTW.

MODX/MODX+, CK and SX720 use the "classic" AWM2 organization: 8 Elements per Part. Each Element is a mini-synth with its own Waveform. One or more Elements will sound depending upon note (e.g., C5) and strike velocity.

If the piano voice is single part and it has 8 or less Waveforms (e.g., velocity levels, key off noise, etc.), ya good.

However, people want more and more velocity levels. Just in terms of Waveforms, the MODX/MODX+ CFX has nine velocity levels plus key off. Uh, oh, that's ten Waveforms, so one Part isn't enough. That's why Montage/MODX spread multiple Waveforms (one per Element) across 4 parts.

The Montage/MODX CFX Concert Performance (voice) has eighteen Elements (Waveforms). Montage/MODX provides a "lite" CFX with 8 Elements in one Part (CFX Stage).

Since Montage/MODX are synths, we can deep-dive the voice structure. Not so on CK or SX720. SX720 is based on the XG variant of AWM2, so it is limited to one Part (8 Elements). CK is probably limited in the same way. The CFX on CK and SX720 are similar to CFX Stage.

Hope this info helps -- pj

sandsoftwaresound.net/yamaha-piano-voice-programming/

[pjd]

After saying all that, it could be a case of TMI.

The MODX+, CK and SX720 are produced by different Yamaha product teams and different sound designers. Thus, the CFX may be "voiced" differently on each keyboard. The best thing to do is to sit down and try them all! A big part of playing satisfaction comes from the hand to key to sound connection. Only way you'll feel that is playing.

As to sax, the SX720 S.Art saxophones benefit from smart software that make sax playing intuitive. MODX/MODX+ has the same Waveforms deep inside, but you need to trigger articulations using the AF1 and AF2 front panel buttons. (Legato gestures are the same on both boards.)

CK doesn't have either S.Art or Extended Articulation (AF1, AF2). The sax -- to me -- if kind of lifeless. They're middling sax sounds at best. The CK designers might be assuming we will play with a live human saxophonist?

Hope all of this input helps -- pj