Gibson Guitars - Poor Quality and High Prices and Bankruptcy

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Gibson Guitars - Poor Quality and High Prices and Bankruptcy

Unread post by Saul » Sun Feb 11, 2018 6:29 pm

I thought they had already sold the Memphis facility but perhaps not?

Sad to hear but not really surprised about the Custom Shop. Again it's a case that the quality doesn't merit the asking price.

I am aware there are plenty of very happy Gibson owners around the world but when your paying this much for an iconic brand quality should never be the issue that it is.
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Gibson Guitars - Poor Quality and High Prices and Bankruptcy

Unread post by Cuthbert » Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:05 am

Saul wrote:
Sat Feb 10, 2018 2:10 pm
If I were Gibson and given the huge amount of debt they need to service I would move all electric guitar manufacture out of the country apart from the custom shop models. Cut costs on build and reduce retail prices accordingly.
This would be suicidal, nobody wants a non American Gibson.

And I speak as Gibson owner since 1997: I have one Les Paul, two Flying Vs and two acoustics, the AJ and a Sheryl Crow,both top notch instruments equal or better to certain extend to my Martin HD-28V.

Having said that it doesn't make much sense to have two plants, Menphis and Nashville, for the electric guitars, they can consolidate the production in one place especially due to the decline of the electric guitar popularity today. Ironically, the badly finished 335s I have seen came from Menphis.

Regarding the quality of the their Custom shop guitar I have never heard a complain and all those that I have seen were flawless.
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Gibson Guitars - Poor Quality and High Prices and Bankruptcy

Unread post by Saul » Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:22 am

Why would nobody want a non American Gibson?
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Gibson Guitars - Poor Quality and High Prices and Bankruptcy

Unread post by Cuthbert » Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:42 pm

Go on the Gibson forum and open the poll: "Would you buy a Gibson not made in the USA?" and see the results.
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Gibson Guitars - Poor Quality and High Prices and Bankruptcy

Unread post by Saul » Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:00 pm

Cuthbert wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:42 pm
Go on the Gibson forum and open the poll: "Would you buy a Gibson not made in the USA?" and see the results.
That's a bit pointless. It's a 'Gibson' forum, what would you expect them to say? Ask the wider guitar playing community and you will get a much more balanced response.
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Gibson Guitars - Poor Quality and High Prices and Bankruptcy

Unread post by Cuthbert » Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:13 pm

If somebody wants a non USA there already are Epiphones, moving the Gibson production abroad would be completely pointless and will kill the brand.

Plus, today they charge you (or they ask to charge you) 1500 euros for a made in Korea archtop (the new D'Angelicos) therefore there won't be any saving.
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Gibson Guitars - Poor Quality and High Prices and Bankruptcy

Unread post by Saul » Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:07 pm

Doesn't really answer the question of why no one would want a non USA made Gibson. Why would it make a difference if the guitars were built in Korea, China or Indonesia? It's still exactly the same guitar you just wouldn't be paying silly money for it. In fact why bother with Gibson anyway when there is Epiphone.
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Gibson Guitars - Poor Quality and High Prices and Bankruptcy

Unread post by Cuthbert » Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:27 pm

Saul wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:07 pm
Doesn't really answer the question of why no one would want a non USA made Gibson. Why would it make a difference if the guitars were built in Korea, China or Indonesia? It's still exactly the same guitar you just wouldn't be paying silly money for it. In fact why bother with Gibson anyway when there is Epiphone.
It does. To me as well as to anybody who works in manufacturing industry, something that I presume you don't... I don't want to lose my job because of customer's greed ("I want to pay less!") or my employer's greed (as it has happened in Italy in the last 15 years). And I don't want the workers in developed countries to be laid off either, is it so hard to understand?

One of the few good things the Americans do are guitars, and I am happy to pay a reasonable price for a good instrument, in 1957 the Les Paul Standard cost the equivalent of $2000 today, a Custom 3000, that is the "reasonable" price for me. And I am available to spend that money for fine instruments. Same thing for a made in Japan SG3000 that costs 2600 euros.

Somebody will say I am a fool for considering spending that money for a Yamaha just because for them they are cheap Asian guitars and they use the same arguments you are using.
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Gibson Guitars - Poor Quality and High Prices and Bankruptcy

Unread post by Saul » Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:28 pm

There are certainly good guitars made in America just the same as there are in Asia and Europe...only they tend to do it cheaper.

I hope you do realise that everyone who prefers not to spend three grand on a Gibson is not just being greedy and happy for you and others like you to lose your jobs? No one want's you to lose your job and if the product is value for money I think people will always be happy to pay for it.

What people won't be happy to do is spend thousands of dollars JUST to keep you or me or anyone else in a job.

However the thing about the USA is out of all the worlds economies it probably could survive not importing anything at all. It's large enough and can produce just about any product. But then how does it service it's huge debt which runs into the trillions of dollars? That is where international trade comes into play but, if you go down the protectionist route other countries will then throw up the barriers to US imports. It's a tricky question for sure.

Yamaha's are relatively cheap compared to Gibson but they are high quality and certainly not what I would call "cheap Asian guitars" taking that in the derogatory sense it was no doubt said. Anyone who thinks that is missing a few marbles.

Personally, were I in the market for an electric guitar there is a whole world of them I would consider but none of them would have 'Gibson' written on the headstock. I would though definitely look at Epiphone :)
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Gibson Guitars - Poor Quality and High Prices and Bankruptcy

Unread post by parametric » Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:22 am

I think as in all arguments of this kind, Market forces will decide. Customers will vote with their Wallets.

Gibson's origins are American for sure, and purists will argue that the product should be made there -

(To be considered the real thing). That's OK as far as it goes . . .

I seem to remember the same kind of arguments raging over the acquisition of Fender, by CBS . . . . . .

There was the "CBS models aren't real Fenders" cry from the purists. . . .

If the skilled craftsmen have priced themselves out of the market (got greedy) - then the Company has to decide

what to do to survive . . .

Placing manufacture elsewhere would seem to be an obvious way to go. It's not for me to say . . .

Those guys are paid huge salaries to stick their heads above the parapet with that decision - and they are welcome to it.

If it's done WELL, there is no problem.

The facilities NEED to be managed by Gibson staff who KNOW what they are looking at -

to ENSURE the product is up to standard.

It will carry the Gibson Name for all to see, and will be "A Gibson".

If Gibson MANAGEMENT takes inappropriate short cuts (due to greed) at this stage, then in all likelihood,

an inferior product will be produced - and will STILL sport the Gibson Name.

(This is where "unwise" starts to bite . . .)

Again, the customer WILL decide.

Generally customers at this level are not stupid and will spot that quality has fallen away while the

price remains the same.

There will ALWAYS be those who WILL spring for the "Made in the USA" product - and that is fine . . . .

Much obviously depends on how much Gibson wants to LIMIT their customer base . . . .

Only they know the answer to that - but it begs the question - Is it a sustainable business plan?

In my opinion, Monkeying around with a prestigious Brand like Gibson is unwise to say the least.

With THAT Brand's historic reputation for quality, the Management want to be doing as little as possible -

so as NOT to destroy what they already have . . . . . - if they haven't already . . . . . :roll:
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Opinions vary, and not just about the Montage . . . . .

All in all, its a good platform to share your concerns and opinions.
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Gibson Guitars - Poor Quality and High Prices and Bankruptcy

Unread post by Saul » Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:50 am

Well of course this brings us nicely back to the reason this thread is here in the first place.

The quality of guitars coming out of Gibson has been variable over the last few years and it shouldn't be, not at the price they are asking. It is supposed to be a premium brand and when you pay three grand for a guitar you don't expect to find dodgy frets and poor finishes.

So that is the context in which I suggest they move production abroad, at least for the standard guitars or just don't bother because Epiphone's are often better quality and a LOT cheaper.

At least on this forum you CAN critique Yamaha or any other brand. We are not a closed shop like the Gibson forums or Yamahasynth.com. Sure you will get people defending Yamaha but they also mostly accept that there are other possibilities out there and that other points of view may indeed be valid.

With the Gibson issue I guess you have to stack the dodgy guitars up against the high volumes that are well made but still, nothing should get past quality control, not at this price point.
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Gibson Guitars - Poor Quality and High Prices and Bankruptcy

Unread post by JDZ » Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:40 am

Saul wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:50 am
...nothing should get past quality control, not at this price point.
:cry:

"Gibson Les Paul Traditional 2018 now with pre-cracked headstocks!
Gibson display yet another broken guitar on their own website"
https://www.gearnews.com/gibson-les-pau ... eadstocks/

gibson-les-paul-traditional-2018-tobacco-perimiter-burst-3.jpg

"Gibson shows a chipped and damaged $4799 Les Paul on its website
Brand new Les Paul model shown damaged on their own site!"
https://www.gearnews.com/gibson-les-pau ... aged-site/
Attachments
Gibson-Les-Paul-Standard-Oxford-Gray-damaged-and-chipped-.jpg
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Gibson Guitars - Poor Quality and High Prices and Bankruptcy

Unread post by Saul » Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:06 am

Maybe it's some sort of "old world charm" thing. Guitars come pre damaged for that "on the road" look ;)

Seriously though letting things get through quality control is bad enough but actually photographing damaged guitars and using them in your own publicity is complete madness.

Here's another pic of that chipped guitar just in case it was hard to spot.
Chipped New Gibson.png
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Gibson Guitars - Poor Quality and High Prices and Bankruptcy

Unread post by Daviedawg » Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:34 am

For me the issue with Gibson is the variability of quality. So "try before you buy" would be my motto. But then in my view every guitar is different no matter if the same people build them because each piece or combination of pieces of wood is different.

I have had two Epiphone Les Pauls both black with Alnico 5s. I wish I had kept the first one which was resonant and sustained superbly. But I sold it and relied on that knowledge to replace it unseen. This one is dead in comparison. It may mature over time. But theoretically the same guitars are so different.

Neither match the richness of my SF500. I thought I would add that.

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Gibson Guitars - Poor Quality and High Prices and Bankruptcy

Unread post by EXer » Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:26 pm

Saul wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:06 am
actually photographing damaged guitars and using them in your own publicity is complete madness.
Absolutely.

They definitely should learn how to use Photoshop!
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