Genos multitrack audio recording

Yamaha Genos digital workstation keyboard

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MaFaKeys
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Genos multitrack audio recording

Unread post by MaFaKeys » Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:47 am

Hi All,

I have created a midi file with 16 midi tracks and applied several insert effects to several tracks.
I'm trying to record this to an audio file through the Genos multitrack recording.
However, every time I record to audio and then playback the audio, it turns out the Genos does not record the audio uninterrupted, there are always lots of points where there are noise interruptions.
Is this because of latency? Is this because I'm applying the insert effects to the different tracks?
Is there a way I can run the midi file and record it to audio, without using DAW software externally on a computer, directly on the Genos without getting these interruptions?
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Re: Genos multitrack audio recording

Unread post by Saul » Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:36 am

Hi MaFaKeys, welcome to yamahamusicians.com :)

When you play that MIDI file before attempting to record does everything play ok? So it is only when actually recording and playing back that recording you hear the noise?

Are you able to describe what sort of noise it is?

If you are recording into Cubase it does sound like it could be a latency issue. Can you tell us a bit more about your setup.

Do you have an audio interface and if so what make and model is it?
What version of Cubase are you using?
Are you using a Mac or PC?
What version operating system do you have installed on your computer, Windows 7, 8, 10 or Mac High Sierra etc?

We do have quite a few Genos owners on the forum and one of those may be able to help but of course all us non Genos owners will do what we can too.
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Re: Genos multitrack audio recording

Unread post by parametric » Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:37 pm

Hi MaFaKeys . . . .

I'm NOT a Genos owner, but what you are trying should be a "bread and butter" task for any decent board . . . .

It OUGHT to be possible for the Genos to play that file, using the voices/performances you have selected,

and obey all the inserts you have made . . . Much depends on what Yamaha have "allowed" in this respect . . .

The Genos is a flagship board - so (IMO) everything should be possible (limited ONLY by your imagination :roll: )

OTHERWISE . . . .

It will be the "long way round", by which I mean - LOADING The midi file into a DAW, setting up the Midi correctly, -

allocating the tracks to the same midi channels that are used in the Genos - and then RECORDING the

Genos' Audio Output to a .wav, or whatever you wish . . .

(In other word - USING the Genos as a "Sound Card" . . . . . 8O )

What is uncertain (to me) is whether or not the inserts you have done are INCLUDED (or indeed can be) in that midi file???

IMO, you should NOT be having to jump through hoops to do this with a board at THIS price point . . . .

perhaps this helps?

parametric
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Re: Genos multitrack audio recording

Unread post by Saul » Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:56 pm

I agree with you Chris. This should be as easy as falling off a log but, we have both been using Yamaha gear long enough to know that what "should" be easy very often isn't ;) They have their own very odd way of doing things sometimes.
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Re: Genos multitrack audio recording

Unread post by MaFaKeys » Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:54 pm

Let's leave out the part of DAW/Computer for now, I'm only using the Genos by itself.
When I play the midi file, no problem, everything works fine, including all of the insert effects that are applied to the selected instruments.
However, when I play the file and record it to Audio, which is an option for Genos, it does not record correctly. I have all the latest firmware installed but every attempt to record the song to audio within the Genos fails. And it does not always fail at the same point, it seems to be random, sometimes somewhere in the beginning, sometimes somewhere in the middle and sometimes at the end.
The sound you hear is the same as when you plug in an audio jack into an amplifier of which the volume is not at zero.
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Re: Genos multitrack audio recording

Unread post by parametric » Sat Jul 14, 2018 1:46 am

It would seem that Yamaha INTEND this to be possible INSIDE the Genos (Which is GOOD ((i)) )

I can only conclude that this may be a firmware bug that has not been sorted out yet.

Ideally, you need to talk to someone at Yamaha who KNOWS the Genos and is man-enough to admit it's NOT been sorted yet -

and can give some idea of progress on the problem . . . .

Phil Clendenin (Bad_Mister) on YamahaSynth should be the Guy to ask - (provided he's in a good mood).

He is VERY KNOWLEDGEABLE on Yamaha Gear, but one look at his Post-Count will tell you that he is a VERY BUSY BOY.

I had very good info from him on the one occasion when I asked a question of him . . . .

else, take a look in that Forum and see if anyone else has noticed the problem already - and has some feedback . . .

ATB

parametric
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Re: Genos multitrack audio recording

Unread post by magicfluteb » Sat Jul 14, 2018 2:40 am

Hi,
I don't know if this is of any help, since I'm relatively new to working with the Genos myself, but I can tell you of my experiences and, perhaps, it may be of help to you and give you some ideas.
When you create a midi file, you save it to User, USB1, etc. and then you have the option of recording it to some program like Cubase (which I've never done) or, using your Main Audio Outputs, plug into an audio > digital converter (I use the behringer U-Control UCA202 USB/Audio Interface with Digital Output) and that, in turn, into your computer where you can save the file and then burn CD's, etc. You do that so all of the instruments in your original midi file sound like the original. I learned the hard way: I loaded my completed midi file from the Genos to a thumb drive, and then downloaded the thumb drive onto my computer. I sat back to listen to the fruits of my labors and the result sounded like the "Zombie Marching Band from Outer Space." I learned that you cannot make an audio recording from a midi file. To do that, you have to make the initial recording in the Audio Quick/Multi Recording section of the Genos. If you do that, you then have the option of making a .wave file. I've only done that once because you are limited to only a couple of channels.
I don't know if I have explained this clearly enough, or if it addresses your problem, but, hopefully, it may have given you a few clues. I'm a professional musician with very little background in all the "in's and out's" of electronics. I guess it's about time I come forward into the 21st. century.
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Re: Genos multitrack audio recording

Unread post by parametric » Sat Jul 14, 2018 3:57 am

Hi magicfluteb, and welcome to the Forums . . . .

It is a common misconception about midi . . .

Midi is merely a series of instructions, that will tell a connected midi device Which notes to play, for how long, how hard, which channel, which Voice (Preset/Performance), how FAST to play, how loud or soft - and a number of other things besides . . .

It is the BAIN of our creative lives that we (usually) want to use the SAME SOUNDS that our board uses (i.e - the Genos) - when it come to making an AUDIO of the whole thing . . . .

If you reiterate the midi file to ANOTHER DEVICE, then ITS sounds will be used instead - remember, midi is ONLY instructions . .

(and will be true to the instructions in the file, concerning Voice/Performance numbers, channels and everything else.)

This will of course NOT sound like the Genos. (which is probably the DIN you heard . . . ?)

SO - if you want to "play" the midi file in a DAW, AND you want the Genos' Sounds, you have to connect the Computer via midi

(either via usb OR using a midi interface with Midi IN and OUT connections CORRECTLY.)

You are then effectively using the Genos as a "SoundCard".

You also need to get an INSTRUMENT DEFINITION FILE for the Genos and load it into the DAW . . . .

(this should be simpler if you use Cubase - as Yamaha own Steinberg . . . )

Only then, will the DAW KNOW where the sounds ARE inside the Genos, and will be able to address them correctly.

When everything is correct, there should be no difference between the Genos playing the file and the DAW playing the

file back to the Genos.


As has been discussed in a previous post, the Genos should be able to do this itself - but there seems to be a problem . . . .

The Genos is still quite new - and its entirely possible that there are oddities that got through pre-release testing . . .

OTHERWISE, you could use your Audio/Midi interface attached to the computer, to take the Genos L+R Audio and feed them

back into the DAW as AUDIO TRACKS, arm them for record, and RUN (Play) the file,which should record the AUDIO from the

Genos, (as the file plays), that way.

All should be well, so long as the tracks in the Genos sequencer have been "mixed" to your liking to the

Left and Right of the Stereo Output.

You can most likely set the DAW to record the Genos Audio as a stereo track . . .

You should be able to set that up inside the DAW

Hope that helps . . .

parametric
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Re: Genos multitrack audio recording

Unread post by magicfluteb » Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:29 am

Hi parametric,
Thanks for your detailed reply. I started following these forums in the hope of educating myself for the in-depth use of the Genos. Yes, it would make life a lot easier if the Genos could, within itself, make an audio file from the midi recordings. In an update, they added the Audio Multi-Recording feature, but the problem is that it offers only two channels. You are able to layer another voice on top of that but, all-in-all, very limiting when you compare it to the ability of the Genos 16 channel Multi Midi-Recording. Perhaps you are right, and they will address that missing feature in a future update. In the meantime, I have to take those many steps in converting my recorded midi files into an audio file. But, it's still easier than getting a full band together. At least the Genos doesn't take breaks, plays in tune, doesn't complain about the notes, is sober, and doesn't belong to the union.
Thanks again,
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Re: Genos multitrack audio recording

Unread post by parametric » Sun Jul 15, 2018 3:10 am

magicfluteb wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:29 am
At least the Genos doesn't take breaks, plays in tune, doesn't complain about the notes, is sober, and doesn't belong to the union.
LOVE that last bit . . . :lol: :lol: :lol: As regards "The Union" I guess you mean "Equity"?

Often referred to as the "Actor's Union", most all session singers belong, and they are quite a militant lot generally . . .

"No Overtime or Favours Done", (as Ray Davies of the Kinks put it in their track "Session Man") is absolutely TRUE . . . .

As to "The problem" - you've probably seen Saul's remark, that Yamaha often have peculiar ways of doing things -

that sometimes don't seem to be the obvious way . . .

I cannot reconcile providing a 16 Track Sequencer, with disallowing the mixing of ALL those tracks to STEREO - as AUDIO 8O

Unless I'm misunderstanding something???

In their defence, Yamaha are usually efficient at fixing things, its just a question of when . . . ?

I've had this same argument with myself for years now with my Alesis Fusions . . .

The Sequencer will record up to 32 tracks of midi AND 8 tracks of Audio - and theoretically you can finish a piece of work

INSIDE the Fusion . . . but the screen is just too small for easy detailed work . . .

I just find it MUCH easier to work in a DAW - and so I transfer both AUDIO and Midi-streams to Reaper for editing/arranging/mixing.

There's the added benefit of using Virtual instruments too . . . .

If it's the Genos' sounds you particularly like, another long-way-round is to solo each TRACK in turn and record as Audio in your DAW

Then you just mix and arrange to your liking.

My Fusions are remote from my DAW, so I simply solo each track and record it via S/PDif to my M-Audio Microtrack 24/96 recorder,

and sneaker-net the files to my DAW, and drop them in . . .

If I export the multitrack midi file AS WELL, I can also import THAT into Reaper . . .

(if I wish to have the choice of Virtual instruments on some tracks . . . .)

ATB

parametric
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Re: Genos multitrack audio recording

Unread post by Saul » Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:28 am

I think in Yamaha's defence they probably didn't envisage entirely how Genos would be used. We can call that a lack of planning for sure and definitely there are certain people in the company that need to be shall we say "retrained"? ;) but, the whole Genos thing is an evolving process. What started out as an "arranger" keyboard is rapidly turning into something else entirely.

So, as frustrating as it seems I do think all these things will be sorted eventually. Yamaha is a very large company and a bit like a giant ocean liner it takes time to change course but they do get there eventually ;)
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Re: Genos multitrack audio recording

Unread post by parametric » Sun Jul 15, 2018 2:58 pm

Saul wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:28 am
I think in Yamaha's defence they probably didn't envisage entirely how Genos would be used.
This seem to be coming increasingly clear :wink: , but in all honesty, Yamaha have been around Musicians long enough to

know that we are an inquisitive and inventive lot.

Curiosity is often the stick that beats us - so it's in our nature to get inside and see what the beast can do . . . .

No stone is generally left un-turned and Brick Walls are not welcome in our striving to be different to the herd

in the creation of our Music. . . . .

I honestly feel it would do Yamaha no harm, to give a bunch of "selected users" an early look (pre-release perhaps?) at the product,

so Direction might be more clearly determined/foreseen, enabling "i"s to be dotted, and "t"s crossed before product release . . . . ?

Quite apart from the technology built into a board such as the Genos with respect to "engines", the provision of midi alone

opens up a treasure house of possible uses in itself . . . .

IMO, Yamaha should not really be so surprised by what users might come up with. It's in our nature . . . . :lol:

parametric
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Re: Genos multitrack audio recording

Unread post by Saul » Sun Jul 15, 2018 4:18 pm

Well you and I Chris have been involved in consultation with Yamaha but I have no idea what that was about and they seem to have headed off on a tangent to what we discussed at the time. I think we both thought they were talking about a replacement for the MOXF but there has been no sign of that and apparently Montage was already far advanced at the time so I don't think it was that either.

Yamaha do hold a lot of consultations and I am pretty sure they send kit out for testing. The big question is, who is listening?
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Re: Genos multitrack audio recording

Unread post by parametric » Sun Jul 15, 2018 4:27 pm

All valid points Saul . . . . .

Was it in fact the Genos-to-be? in that case . . . .?

I really thought we had "contributed" on that occasion . . . .

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Re: Genos multitrack audio recording

Unread post by Saul » Sun Jul 15, 2018 4:44 pm

Could have been Genos but I know that both it and Montage were already in the works at the time. Montage was already far advanced so I doubt it was that but Genos? perhaps although if you remember they were concentrating a fair bit on a £1000 price cap...for whatever it was? That would leave Genos out of the mix.
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