RE: Tagging Large Scale Classical CDs (help?)

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RE: Tagging Large Scale Classical CDs (help?)

Unread post by monsterjazzlicks » Sat Oct 13, 2018 2:55 pm

Hi folks ,

I am currently ripping my classical large-scale works.

I am now tagging Bach's: "St. Matthew Passion":

https://www.discogs.com/Johann-Sebastia ... se/7265686

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1D3DACn ... WsZGT/view

I would like to state the track titles in English (rather than the default German). But, I do not speak German! I usually state both the native language and the English translation (in parenthesis for the latter) on such CDs. But for this particular work I would run out of characters because the titles are already rather long!

And so, a member of another music forum kindly provided me with an English translation of the tracks/titles; however, having got half way through the tagging I have noticed there may be some tracks missing in his list!

I dare say that Chris might know for sure and would be able to assist here.

Many thanks,

Paul
Last edited by monsterjazzlicks on Sat Oct 13, 2018 2:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: RE: Tagging Large Scale Classical CDs (help?)

Unread post by monsterjazzlicks » Sat Oct 13, 2018 2:57 pm

Hi,

Here is the English translation:

1. The Passion Of Our Lord According To St. Matthew, BWV 244: Part I : No. 1 - 'Come, Ye Daughters'
2. The Passion Of Our Lord According To St. Matthew, BWV 244: Part I: No. 2 - 'When Jesus Had Finished' (Recitative: Evangelist, Jesus)
3. The Passion Of Our Lord According To St. Matthew, BWV 244: Part I: No. 3 - 'O Blessed Jesu'
4. The Passion Of Our Lord According To St. Matthew, BWV 244: Part I: No. 4 - 'Then Assembled The Chief Priests' (Recitative: Evangelist)
5. The Passion Of Our Lord According To St. Matthew, BWV 244: Part I: No. 5 - 'Not Upon The Feast'
6. The Passion Of Our Lord According To St. Matthew, BWV 244: Part I: No. 13 - 'Now On The First Day' (Recitative: Evangelist)

7. The Passion Of Our Lord According To St. Matthew, BWV 244: Part I: No. 14 - 'Where Wilt Thou'
8. The Passion Of Our Lord According To St. Matthew, BWV 244: Part I: No. 15 - 'He Said: Go Ye Into The City' (Recitative: Evangelist, Jesus)
9. The Passion Of Our Lord According To St. Matthew, BWV 244: Part I: No. 15 - 'Lord, Is It I?'
10. The Passion Of Our Lord According To St. Matthew, BWV 244: Part I: No. 16 - 'Tis I Who Should Be Sharing'
11. The Passion Of Our Lord According To St. Matthew, BWV 244: Part I: No. 17 - 'He Answered Them, And Said' (Recitative: Evangelist, Jesus)
12. The Passion Of Our Lord According To St. Matthew, BWV 244: Part I: No. 18 - 'Although My Heart And Eyes O'erflow' (Accompanied Recitative: Soprano)
13. The Passion Of Our Lord According To St. Matthew, BWV 244: Part I: No. 19 - 'Lord, To Thee My Heart I Proffer' (Aria: Soprano)
14. The Passion Of Our Lord According To St. Matthew, BWV 244: Part I: No. 20 - 'And When They Had Sung' (Recitative: Evangelist, Jesus)
15. The Passion Of Our Lord According To St. Matthew, BWV 244: Part I: No. 21 - 'Acknowledge Me, My Keeper'
16. The Passion Of Our Lord According To St. Matthew, BWV 244: Part I: No. 22 - 'Then Answered Peter' (Recitative: Evangelist, Peter, Jesus)
17. The Passion Of Our Lord According To St. Matthew, BWV 244: Part I: No. 23 - 'Near Thee I Would Be Staying'
18. The Passion Of Our Lord According To St. Matthew, BWV 244: Part I: No. 24 - 'Then Cometh Jesus With Them' (Recitative: Evangelist, Jesus)
19. The Passion Of Our Lord According To St. Matthew, BWV 244: Part I: No. 25 - 'O Grief, How Throbs' (Accompanied Recitative: Tenor)
20. The Passion Of Our Lord According To St. Matthew, BWV 244: Part I: No. 26 - 'I Would Beside My Lord Be Watching' (Aria: Tenor)
21. The Passion Of Our Lord According To St. Matthew, BWV 244: Part I: No. 27 - 'And He Went A Little Farther' (Recitative: Evangelist, Jesus)
22. The Passion Of Our Lord According To St. Matthew, BWV 244: Part I: No. 28 - 'The Saviour, Low Before His Father Bending' (Accompanied Recitative: Bass)
23. The Passion Of Our Lord According To St. Matthew, BWV 244: Part I: No. 29 - 'Gladly Would I Be Enduring' ((Aria: Bass)
24. The Passion Of Our Lord According To St. Matthew, BWV 244: Part I: No. 30 - 'And He Came To His Disciples' (Recitative: Evangelist, Jesus)
25. The Passion Of Our Lord According To St. Matthew, BWV 244: Part I: No. 31 - 'The Will Of God Be Alway Done'
26. The Passion Of Our Lord According To St. Matthew, BWV 244: Part I: No. 32 - 'And He Came Again' (Recitative: Evangelist, Jesus, Judas)
27. The Passion Of Our Lord According To St. Matthew, BWV 244: Part I: No. 33 - 'Behold, My Saviour Now Is Taken' (Duet: Soprano And Alto)
28. The Passion Of Our Lord According To St. Matthew, BWV 244: Part I: No. 34 - 'And Behold, One Of Them' (Recitative: Evangelist, Jesus)
29. The Passion Of Our Lord According To St. Matthew, BWV 244: Part I: No. 35 - 'O Man, Bewail Thy Grievous Sin!'
30. The Passion Of Our Lord According To St. Matthew, BWV 244: Part II: No. 36 - 'Ah! Now Is My Saviour Gone'
31. The Passion Of Our Lord According To St. Matthew, BWV 244: Part II: No. 37 - 'And They That Laid Hold On Jesus' (Recitative: Evangelist, 1st And 2nd Maids, Peter)
32. The Passion Of Our Lord According To St. Matthew, BWV 244: Part II: No. 46 - 'Truly, Thou Also Art One Of Them'
33. The Passion Of Our Lord According To St. Matthew, BWV 244: Part II: No. 46 - 'And Then Did He Begin To Curse And To Swear' (Recitative: Evangelist, Peter)

1. The Passion Of Our Lord According To St. Matthew, BWV 244: Part II: No. 47 - 'Have Pity, Lord, On Me'
2. The Passion Of Our Lord According To St. Matthew, BWV 244: Part II: No. 53 - 'Whate'er May Vex Or Grieve Thee'
3. The Passion Of Our Lord According To St. Matthew, BWV 244: Part II: No. 54 - 'Now At That Feast' (Recitative: Evangelist, Pilate)
4. The Passion Of Our Lord According To St. Matthew, BWV 244: Part II: No. 54 - 'Barabbas!'
5. The Passion Of Our Lord According To St. Matthew, BWV 244: Part II: No. 54 - 'Then Pilate Said To Them' (Recitative: Evangelist, Pilate)
6. The Passion Of Our Lord According To St. Matthew, BWV 244: Part II: No. 54 - 'Let Him Be Crucified'
7. The Passion Of Our Lord According To St. Matthew, BWV 244: Part II: No. 56 - 'The Governor Answered' (Recitative: Evangelist, Pilate)
8. The Passion Of Our Lord According To St. Matthew, BWV 244: Part II: No. 57 - 'To All Men Jesu Good Hath Done' (Accompanied Recitative: Soprano)
9. The Passion Of Our Lord According To St. Matthew, BWV 244: Part II: No. 58 - 'In Love My Saviour Now Is Dying' (Aria: Soprano)
10. The Passion Of Our Lord According To St. Matthew, BWV 244: Part II: No. 59 - 'But They Cried Out The More' (Recitative: Evangelist)
11. The Passion Of Our Lord According To St. Matthew, BWV 244: Part II: No. 59 - 'Let Him Be Crucified'
12. The Passion Of Our Lord According To St. Matthew, BWV 244: Part II: No. 59 - 'Then Released He Barabbas' (Recitative: Evangelist)
13. The Passion Of Our Lord According To St. Matthew, BWV 244: Part II: No. 60 - 'O Gracious God'
14. The Passion Of Our Lord According To St. Matthew, BWV 244: Part II: No. 62 - 'And Then Did The Soldiers Of The Governor' (Recitative: Evangelist)
15. The Passion Of Our Lord According To St. Matthew, BWV 244: Part II: No. 62 - 'We Hail Thee, King Of The Jews'
16. The Passion Of Our Lord According To St. Matthew, BWV 244: Part II: No. 62 - 'And Then They Spat On Him' (Recitative: Evangelist)
17. The Passion Of Our Lord According To St. Matthew, BWV 244: Part II: No. 63 - 'O Thou, With Hate Surrounded'
18. The Passion Of Our Lord According To St. Matthew, BWV 244: Part II: No. 64 - 'And After They Had Mocked Him' (Recitative: Evangelist)
19. The Passion Of Our Lord According To St. Matthew, BWV 244: Part II: No. 69 - 'Ah, Golgotha!'
20. The Passion Of Our Lord According To St. Matthew, BWV 244: Part II: No. 70 - 'Look Ye, Jesu Waiting Stands'
21. The Passion Of Our Lord According To St. Matthew, BWV 244: Part II: No. 71 - 'Now From The Sixth Hour' (Recitative: Evangelist, Jesus)
22. The Passion Of Our Lord According To St. Matthew, BWV 244: Part II: No. 71 - 'He Calleth For Elijah'
23. The Passion Of Our Lord According To St. Matthew, BWV 244: Part II: No. 71 - 'And Straightaway One Of Them Ran' (Recitative: Evangelist)
24. The Passion Of Our Lord According To St. Matthew, BWV 244: Part II: No. 71 - 'Wait, And See If Elijah Cometh To Save Him'
25. The Passion Of Our Lord According To St. Matthew, BWV 244: Part II: No. 71 - 'And Again Jesus Cried Aloud' (Recitative: Evangelist)
26. The Passion Of Our Lord According To St. Matthew, BWV 244: Part II: No. 71 - 'When I Too Am Departing'
27. The Passion Of Our Lord According To St. Matthew, BWV 244: Part II: No. 73 - 'And Then, Behold, The Veil Of The Temple' (Accompanied Recitative: Evangelist)
28. The Passion Of Our Lord According To St. Matthew, BWV 244: Part II: No. 73 - 'Truly, This Was The Son Of God'
29. The Passion Of Our Lord According To St. Matthew, BWV 244: Part II: No. 73 - 'At Eventide There Came A Rich Man' (Recitative: Evangelist)
30. The Passion Of Our Lord According To St. Matthew, BWV 244: Part II: No. 74 - 'At Evening, Hour Of Calm And Peace' (Accompanied Recitative: Bass)
31. The Passion Of Our Lord According To St. Matthew, BWV 244: Part II: No. 75 - 'Make Thee Clean, My Heart, From Sin' (Aria: Bass)
32. The Passion Of Our Lord According To St. Matthew, BWV 244: Part II: No. 77 - 'And Now The Lord To Rest Is Laid'
33. The Passion Of Our Lord According To St. Matthew, BWV 244: Part II: No. 78 - 'In Deepest Grief, Here Sit We Weeping'

If it winds up being too complex/confusing then I may end up just leaving it in German!

Ta,

Paul
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Re: RE: Tagging Large Scale Classical CDs (help?)

Unread post by parametric » Sat Oct 13, 2018 4:07 pm

Part of the problem may be concerned with which Edition is being used . . . .

As with most things, arguments rage about which is the definitive version . . . .

My first ever on-stage experience was at the RFH, with my Choir, singing the Ripieno part in "Come ye Daughters"

back in 1962, Otto Klemperer conducting . . .

I was 11 . . . . 8O

described at the time as the SLOWEST performance ever, it was all in German - as originally written . . . .

<SysExJohn> may have a view on this?

I'll ask a friend of mine, who may know more . . . .

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Re: RE: Tagging Large Scale Classical CDs (help?)

Unread post by monsterjazzlicks » Sat Oct 13, 2018 9:28 pm

Thanks Chris,

It might be a case of me having to sift through the likes of Amazon to try and find a full track listing in English.

As I say, I would rather have the CD tagged in English; but having already wasted two days faffing around, I may just have to keep it in German. In which case I will probably do the same for: "Mass In B Minor".

Ta,

Paul
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Re: RE: Tagging Large Scale Classical CDs (help?)

Unread post by monsterjazzlicks » Sat Oct 13, 2018 11:15 pm

Hi,

I have re-copy&patsed the track titles back into German. It was just too complex translating it into English - partly because I don't speak German! Although I have tailored the track names to suit my taste (ie. adding 'Part' number; 'BWV' number; and track numbers in italics). But it took 2 hours just to complete 1 CD; and there are 3 CDs in this set!

Cheers,

Paul
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Re: RE: Tagging Large Scale Classical CDs (help?)

Unread post by parametric » Sun Oct 14, 2018 12:48 am

These large scale Oratorios all contain discrete "pieces", and it may prove useful to make sure they are described in a way you understand - and so can navigate to find "bits" you want . . .

Typically, you have:

"Recitative". These are narratives, that tell the story. With Bach he is usually a Tenor.

"Arias" are extended solos, though may be Duets, by principle characters . . . .

"Chorales" are the GEMS. Bach wrote MANY of these, many ending up in the Hymn Book, as this is the form they take.

"Chorus" are longer extended pieces for Full Choir and Orchestra.

Using these names will make finding a particular one easier, as these are the "Types" they are generally known by . . .

This is the inside cover of the Cd Booklet of the performance I did at the RFH . . . .

You can see the reference "Boys of Hampstead Parish Church Choir" . ..

Bach St Mathew 1962.jpg
Inside cover of CD Booklet

I do NOT remember the recording (must have been just before I joined the Choir).

If so, it makes sense to me as the usual procession of events . . . First it's recorded . . then, It's performed . . .

(I just "missed" the recording . . . . )

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Re: RE: Tagging Large Scale Classical CDs (help?)

Unread post by SysExJohn » Sun Oct 14, 2018 11:47 am

Hi Paul,

This has been a perennial problem for me. I have several translations of the Mattheus Passion, all of which have some merit.
The problem.
Do you seek a translation that scans correctly when sung and adheres closely to the music?
If so, it often has its inaccuracies regarding a faithful adherence to the original German score.
Or, going the other way, do you seek accuracy to the German text, and ignore the music?

Whichever way one chooses there is always the problem that a translation may not faithfully represent various words the way that Bach understood them. Take, for example, "Kommt,ihr Töchter, helft mir klagen, ...", what is the meaning of klagen?
In a modern dictionary (try dict.leo.org for a modern on-line one) it has several meanings,
to sue, to wail, to complain, to lament, to moan ... etc.
My wife, a doctor of languages and a native German speaker, has none of these but gives me "mourn".
And, in this case, should we translate "ihr" to you, or to ye or thou?

But, for me, what is perhaps the most significant is "how did Bach understand it?"

Well, as they say, you pays yer money and yer takes yer choice.

I often go to the Bach Cantatas web site (bach-cantatas.com) and look up the texts there.
In the left hand menu column you will find "Texts & Translations".
There are many pages covering Bach's vocal works listed by their BWV number.
There are often several translation offerings for each cantata or passion, etc. and the one I chose for BWV244 was English-3 which you can find here:
bach-cantatas.com/Texts/BWV244-Eng3.htm
It allows one to compare the German libretto directly with the translation.

Just my take on it, I'm sure others have differing views.

Kind regards,
JohnG.

P.S. Why not abbreviate the title simply to St.Matthew Passion?
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Re: RE: Tagging Large Scale Classical CDs (help?)

Unread post by SysExJohn » Sun Oct 14, 2018 12:38 pm

Another post script.

There seem to have been two versions of the Passion, one longer than the other.
You can research the original manuscript at bach-digital.de if you have a few more hours/days to spare. ;)
I just had a quick look.
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Re: RE: Tagging Large Scale Classical CDs (help?)

Unread post by monsterjazzlicks » Sun Oct 14, 2018 2:34 pm

SysExJohn wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 12:38 pm
Another post script.

There seem to have been two versions of the Passion, one longer than the other.
You can research the original manuscript at bach-digital.de if you have a few more hours/days to spare. ;)
I just had a quick look.
Thanks John,

Yes I only realized this yesterday, which was one of the factors that threw my tagging scheme into disarray! It left my track-titling out-of-sync!

Paul
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Re: RE: Tagging Large Scale Classical CDs (help?)

Unread post by monsterjazzlicks » Sun Oct 14, 2018 2:49 pm

SysExJohn wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 11:47 am
This has been a perennial problem for me. I have several translations of the Mattheus Passion, all of which have some merit ...
Thanks a lot John,

I can see that all of your helpful and insightful points have validity.

I knew that such large scale works would prove problematic. Which is why - in June 1017 - I started with; 'Jazz' (a genre I am most comfortable with), then 'Pop'; then 'Country' and 'Rock & Roll'; then 'Film-score'; then 'Choral'; then 'Classical'; and finally the likes of 'St. Matthew Passion'. I think it would be literally impossible for a newbie to start off with the latter!

I have now ripped over 150GB in total which is between 500-600 CDs. The light at the end of the tunnel is very close (I will have 20 'Beatles' CDs to rip after these large-scale works).

Regarding your comments on what it is I am specifically trying to tag, it is purely the titles of each track. But, as you have also pointed out - and which became apparent to myself - is that it is going to be too daunting a task - for many reasons. And so, I have switched back to using German titles; albeit in a personalized fashion. Please see screenshot:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1D3DAC ... UWfEAWsZGT

Ta,

Paul
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Re: RE: Tagging Large Scale Classical CDs (help?)

Unread post by monsterjazzlicks » Sun Oct 14, 2018 2:56 pm

Hi Chris,

Thanks very much for all of the info. It is appreciated, interesting, and useful.

I have sung Bach chorals in the past such as "Sleeper's Watch ..." etc.

I wanted to check with you, please: is 'St. Matthew Passion' in TWO PARTS only? There are 78 tracks in total on my version and (I think!?) PART 1 is from track 1 thru track 35. Then PART 2 is from track 36 thru track 78.

Secondly, I have tagged "S.M.P" as:

GENRE = Choral

STYLE = Religious.

Therefore it sits in the same folder as: 'York Minster Choir Best 20 Hymns'; 'William Byrd - Mass For Four Voices / Mass For Five Voices'; 'Palestrina - Sabat Mater'. I notice you refer to "S.M.P" as an 'oratorio'. Whereas I am bundling everything of a reasonable similar ilk into a single folder/genre ('Choral'). I ask because I have Haydn's 'Creation' and Bach's 'Mass In B Minor' to rip next' ...

Cheers,

Paul
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Re: RE: Tagging Large Scale Classical CDs (help?)

Unread post by SysExJohn » Sun Oct 14, 2018 5:31 pm

Paul,

Yes, two parts split, as you correctly say, between movements 35 and 36.

You will find a huge amount of interesting reading again at the Bach Cantatas web site here:
bach-cantatas.com/Vocal/BWV244.htm (copyright bach-cantatas.com.)
BWV244-BC-com.jpg

Etc., etc.
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Re: RE: Tagging Large Scale Classical CDs (help?)

Unread post by monsterjazzlicks » Sun Oct 14, 2018 8:02 pm

Thanks a lot John,

I will check that site out.

I was not aware that each aria/recit./choral was termed a 'movement'. It is these which - as per above screenshot - I have used the roman-numeral numbering system.

Ta,

Paul
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Re: RE: Tagging Large Scale Classical CDs (help?)

Unread post by parametric » Sun Oct 14, 2018 11:59 pm

monsterjazzlicks wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 2:56 pm
I wanted to check with you, please: is 'St. Matthew Passion' in TWO PARTS only? There are 78 tracks in total on my version and (I think!?) PART 1 is from track 1 thru track 35. Then PART 2 is from track 36 thru track 78.
Looks to be the same as My Klemperer edition from 1962 (EMI Classics - 3 CDs)

Yes, it is in 2 Parts - spread across the 3 disks.

More confusing because there is a numbering system that relates to the Oratorio itself - i.e the SCORE, AND

The numbering system of CD Tracks

Part 1 is score-numbered 1 - 35 (CD1 Tks 1 - 31 + CD2 Tks 1 - 4)

Part 2 is score-numbered 36 - 78 (CD2 Tks 5 - 27 + CD3 Tks 1 - 20)

Hope that clears it up . . . .
monsterjazzlicks wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 2:56 pm
Secondly, I have tagged "S.M.P" as:

GENRE = Choral

STYLE = Religious.

Therefore it sits in the same folder as: 'York Minster Choir Best 20 Hymns'; 'William Byrd - Mass For Four Voices / Mass For Five Voices'; 'Palestrina - Sabat Mater'. I notice you refer to "S.M.P" as an 'oratorio'. Whereas I am bundling everything of a reasonable similar ilk into a single folder/genre ('Choral'). I ask because I have Haydn's 'Creation' and Bach's 'Mass In B Minor' to rip next' ...
There's really no absolutes to classifications . . .

The important thing is that YOU understand your system . . . remembering that Choral/Religious will include:

Choir only (A Capella),
Choir with Organ,
Choir with Orchestra . . .

Masses will fit here too, Byrd 3,4 and 5 part (I've sung the 4 and 5 - recorded for the BBC), B Minor Mass,

Missa Solemnis etc . . . can all go here . . .

Haydn's Creation, Mendleson's Elijah, Bach St John Passion - all Oratorios . . .so belong in here -

unless you want to make separate arrangements.

On the other hand - Operas might not be religious . . . . so Choral/Other?

My small experience with databases would suggest that their eventual usefulness is in DIRECT proportion to the

time and thought spent DESIGNING them . . . . It's a lonely and usually thankless task, but doing it WELL will be reflected in

it's eventual usefulness for finding stuff . . .

Chris
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monsterjazzlicks
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Re: RE: Tagging Large Scale Classical CDs (help?)

Unread post by monsterjazzlicks » Mon Oct 15, 2018 5:12 pm

Hi Chris,

Thanks for confirming all of those factors. Now I am a bit more armed with the jargon-busting! Yes, "S.M.P." was a bit weird as it was 2 parts spread across 3 discs, among other things.

Your suggestion of keeping all 'choral' works under one roof is fine; however, I have Wagner's 'Tristan & Isolde' which, I think?, might throw a spanner in the works (as I believe this latter work is a non-religious 'opera')? And ditto for Cimarosa's 'The Secret Marriage'?

Ta,

Paul
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