Integrating Montage 8 Into My Studio-Some Oddities

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Integrating Montage 8 Into My Studio-Some Oddities

Unread post by Basspig » Thu Jan 16, 2020 6:16 am

I formerly had a Roland A80 keyboard connected up with a pair of soft/sustain pedals and also a Roland PK25 pedal board, driving Kurzweil K series rack units.

I swapped out the A80 for the Montage tonight. Plugged my pedals in, as well as the MIDI cable from the PK25 pedals.

The only thing that works in sustain pedal. The Soft pedal, instead of softening the notes on the piano, it is toggling arpeggio function on/off. :confusion-confused:

The pedal board does not work at all. It is plugged into MIDI In on the Montage, just like it was on the A80.

The piano is sounding different now that Montage is connected via USB to computer. It's got a lot of bass emphasis on the low B, and some of the notes sound "flangy". With my old setup, A80 did not make sound, only MIDI data. Maybe Montage is sending itself direct and also through Cakewalk, when I just play the keyboard.

I've only got a few hours experience with this new setup, so there are bound to be some issues needing work out, but these probably require deep diving into system configuration menus in the Montage.

Some details:
Running Cakewalk Sonar Producer on Windows 10 64-bit.
Montage is set as the only input MIDI device.
Output devices are Edirol UM550 ports 2,3,4 & 5, which drive various Kurzweil tone generators/synths
Best Regards,
Mark
-----------------------------------
Kurzweil K2600RS, K2500RS, PC2RO, ExpressionMate Ribbon
Roland A80, Peavey PC1600, Yamaha FS1R, Motif Rack XS, Montage 8
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Re: Integrating Montage 8 Into My Studio-Some Oddities

Unread post by Derek » Thu Jan 16, 2020 11:33 am

Hi,

Very quick observations/questions

Sustain and Volume Pedals do not necessarily port well between manufacturers, as they can be wired differently on the jacks. So something to check. I did try using a Yamaha FC7 volume pedal in my Roland FC300 MIDI Controller, and no joy, so I had to get the Roland equivalent (I did not want to rewire the FC7 as use it elsewhere). So it might be the same in reverse.

MIDI Pedals. Is the Montage set for USB MIDI or DIN MIDI? Check that in Utility mode.

“Flanging sound”. Is MIDI from the Montage being picked up by your DAW software and echoed back? That will give you duplicate notes with a slight delay, which can cause a phasing effect. Either turn off the echo in the DAW or in Montage Utility mode, set LOCAL control to off.
Regards
Derek Cook

http://www.carregddu.co.uk
http://www.echoes-music.co.uk
http://www.xfactory-librarians.co.uk
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Re: Integrating Montage 8 Into My Studio-Some Oddities

Unread post by Basspig » Thu Jan 16, 2020 5:06 pm

Understood about the pedals. I have Kurzweil pedals and to make them work with my Roland keyboard (1/4" plugs), I had to reverse the logic because on was off and visa versa. The sustain pedal works fine.

I did find out that the other pedal is pre configured in Utility... MIDI.. under FS Assign (was set to Arp, changed it to 67, which is soft pedal). Now it doesn't trigger arp, but the Bosendorfer programs don't respond to it either. I will have to dig into the piano programs and see if there is a setting to enable the soft pedal to work (which I would expect with a sample library of this caliber).

The flanging issue solved by turning off Local Control.. it's routing through Cakewalk now. But.. I lose a note now and then, seemingly at random. As I experimented further, I noticed higher velocity notes are lost. Then I realized that only one of the three layers is seeing data when played through Cakewalk. Now this is where I wish I could remember the details of a topic I read 3-4 days ago, regarding Montage listening on 16 channels and multiple parts being a problem with DAWs and how to configure it to listen on one channel for all parts to play. Seems I can't find that discussion now.

I have it setup for USB MIDI, not DIN MIDI, thinking it'd be advantageous to have the higher bandwidth and the digital audio features available, as opposed to using the Montage as a plain ol' MIDI keyboard. Does that make the DIN MIDI input on the keyboard inactive and maybe why me pedal board doesn't work?
Best Regards,
Mark
-----------------------------------
Kurzweil K2600RS, K2500RS, PC2RO, ExpressionMate Ribbon
Roland A80, Peavey PC1600, Yamaha FS1R, Motif Rack XS, Montage 8
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Re: Integrating Montage 8 Into My Studio-Some Oddities

Unread post by Basspig » Thu Jan 16, 2020 6:47 pm

The piano velocities dropping notes above a certain velocity was worked around by changing MIDI I/O mode to Single, however, this prevents Cakewalk from playing an orchestral composition with 16 tracks. I tried 'hybrid' mode, but that also produced silence.

Seems like there's no obvious means to have piano sound above a certain velocity AND a full orchestra project play at the same time.

What am I overlooking here?
Best Regards,
Mark
-----------------------------------
Kurzweil K2600RS, K2500RS, PC2RO, ExpressionMate Ribbon
Roland A80, Peavey PC1600, Yamaha FS1R, Motif Rack XS, Montage 8
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Re: Integrating Montage 8 Into My Studio-Some Oddities

Unread post by Derek » Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:19 pm

Basspig wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 5:06 pm
Then I realized that only one of the three layers is seeing data when played through Cakewalk. Now this is where I wish I could remember the details of a topic I read 3-4 days ago, regarding Montage listening on 16 channels and multiple parts being a problem with DAWs and how to configure it to listen on one channel for all parts to play. Seems I can't find that discussion now.
If by layer you mean Performance Part, then how the Montage responds to external MIDI needs to be checked

See the Montage Supplementary Manual Page 107 and the MIDI IO mode.

Montage MIDI support is a big bone of contention and it is one the "stupid quirks" of the synth, and Yamaha are getting a hard time for it.

I keep my Montage in Single Mode, which means that a single MIDI channel drives all Parts, but that suits me because I use Cantabile as a MIDI processor/router in my studio/live rig.

If you are in Multi Mode then to hear all parts then you need your host synth to transmit on all channels for which Parts are active.

The following YamahaSynth articles are useful references to navigate your way through Yamaha Montage MIDI

https://www.yamahasynth.com/montage-cat ... master-faq

https://www.yamahasynth.com/yamaha-synt ... x-in-a-daw

https://www.yamahasynth.com/montage-cat ... nd-os-v3-0 (hybrid MIDI Mode)
Basspig wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 5:06 pm
have it setup for USB MIDI, not DIN MIDI, thinking it'd be advantageous to have the higher bandwidth and the digital audio features available, as opposed to using the Montage as a plain ol' MIDI keyboard. Does that make the DIN MIDI input on the keyboard inactive and maybe why me pedal board doesn't work?
Yes, sadly, it is a choice of one or the other. I have never understood why you cannot use both, but it has been the case ever since the Motif. If you are in the studio you could use another MIDI interface to connect the pedals to your DAW, and route the MIDI data via the DAW
Regards
Derek Cook

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http://www.echoes-music.co.uk
http://www.xfactory-librarians.co.uk
http://www.ex5tech.co.uk
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Re: Integrating Montage 8 Into My Studio-Some Oddities

Unread post by Basspig » Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:03 pm

Probably so.. the layers (thinking in Kurzweil terminology here) are referred to as parts on the Montage.

There seems to be a mutually exclusive situation though... if I want to play a composition utilizing many instruments, if some of the instruments use more than one part, the playback is missing all but the first part. If I configure the Montage to play all parts from a single MIDI input channel, I can't play the multitrack ensemble performance (I get silence). I've got a four part Imperial Grand for a solo part of the performance, backed by the rest of the orchestra. But to hear the orchestra, I lose all the forte notes on the piano. This is crazy!

Cakewalk Sonar can RECEIVE in Omni mode, but as far as I can tell, cannot transmit per track on more than one MIDI channel at a time.

Montage also shows up three times (as three ports on the MIDI menu). Montage -1, Montage -2 and Montage -3. Not sure what the differences are. Can't find any reference to this in the manual.
Best Regards,
Mark
-----------------------------------
Kurzweil K2600RS, K2500RS, PC2RO, ExpressionMate Ribbon
Roland A80, Peavey PC1600, Yamaha FS1R, Motif Rack XS, Montage 8
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Re: Integrating Montage 8 Into My Studio-Some Oddities

Unread post by Macke » Fri Jan 17, 2020 12:06 am

Basspig wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:03 pm
Montage also shows up three times (as three ports on the MIDI menu). Montage -1, Montage -2 and Montage -3. Not sure what the differences are. Can't find any reference to this in the manual.
Have not found any reference to MONTAGE-2 but according to the article below, MONTAGE-3 is the midi DIN ports on the Montage which can be used when connecting midi equipment like for example an additional controller to use in a DAW through the USB interface.
Reference: Mastering MONTAGE: Getting Started with Cubase
Search for "MONTAGE 3" in the article to locate.
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Re: Integrating Montage 8 Into My Studio-Some Oddities

Unread post by Basspig » Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:21 am

That's a useful clue about the Montage port 3 device. Maybe my connected PK25 pedals ARE operating, just that they are not routing to anything.

There's still much to learn here. Going to work my way (this time slower) through the manual and see if I can absorb anything that relates to the two challenges I'm having right now.
Best Regards,
Mark
-----------------------------------
Kurzweil K2600RS, K2500RS, PC2RO, ExpressionMate Ribbon
Roland A80, Peavey PC1600, Yamaha FS1R, Motif Rack XS, Montage 8
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Re: Integrating Montage 8 Into My Studio-Some Oddities

Unread post by Basspig » Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:36 pm

Okay, simple questions first:

Does the DIN MIDI input on Montage work if the instrument is in USB MIDI mode?

What MIDI channel does the DIN input listen on?

How in the Utility menu do I make this input assign to a particular MIDI channel?


My Roland PK-25 pedals output on MIDI channel 2. Pedals are connected to Montage MIDI IN (DIN jack). I hear nothing when playing the pedals, and I see no way to route the pedal signal to a tone generator. I've tried this through Cakewalk Sonar, but no sound is produced there either.

The only sound I get is if I set Cakewalk track Input = Montage -1 channel 1, and this sound is only when using Montage keyboard--pedal does nothing.
If I set it Montage-1 Ch 2 (supposedly the pedal channel, default for Roland PK25), I hear nothing when I press the pedals or the keyboard.

This configuration worked with my Roland A80 in this manner: Pedal board connected to MIDI IN on the A80. MIDI OUT connected to my MIDI patch bay and on to Cakewalk. Am I correct in understanding that MIDI IN allows you to slave another controller off the main keyboard? This seems pretty industry standard and I would expect it to work the same across all brands of keyboards.

But with the A80, I set up parameters telling it what to route and where. Either I don't know how to dig deep enough into the MIDI I/O menu, or there's no option to do same on Montage?
Best Regards,
Mark
-----------------------------------
Kurzweil K2600RS, K2500RS, PC2RO, ExpressionMate Ribbon
Roland A80, Peavey PC1600, Yamaha FS1R, Motif Rack XS, Montage 8
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Re: Integrating Montage 8 Into My Studio-Some Oddities

Unread post by Basspig » Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:56 pm

Some progress:

I found out that the MIDI IN on the Montage is reflected through device "Montage-3 ch.2". I am now getting the bass pedals routing through Montage and into Cakewalk, where it sends out to port 2, Kurzweil K2600, patch 202, Bourdon Pedal, 32'.

Now I am working on the keyboard zones. I've created three parts covering A1-B1, C2-B4 and C5-C7.
They are assigned to no programs, because I am simply using the keyboard as MIDI controller to output 3 manuals for organ, to the sound libary on the Kurzweil. (Hopefully later, I find a top notch organ library for Montage).

Almost miraculously, I have managed to set up zones and make three separate zones to cover the note ranges above and output their data on the desired MIDI channels 3,1 and 4, which represent the three organ registrations I use in my Cakewalk template.
This works. I now have three distinct separate sounds for the three keyboard zones.

What remains is transposing the left and right zones.. left zone needs to go up 2 octaves and right zone down 2 octaves. I tried doing this under the Pitch submenu, but I hear no transposition of notes. Obviously Pitch is not for the purpose I thought.. so how do I add transposition to each keyboard zone to play the proper range of the samples?

I am literally ONE step away from recreating my original setup with the Montage.. just the pitch transpose problem with the two organ manuals that reside at the edges of the keyboard!
Best Regards,
Mark
-----------------------------------
Kurzweil K2600RS, K2500RS, PC2RO, ExpressionMate Ribbon
Roland A80, Peavey PC1600, Yamaha FS1R, Motif Rack XS, Montage 8
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Re: Integrating Montage 8 Into My Studio-Some Oddities

Unread post by Basspig » Sat Jan 18, 2020 1:01 am

Well I WAS close. Now I am suddenly at worse than zero. No sound output on ANY of my MIDI devices. All I did was make a change in Cakewalk. Thinking I could undo the change, I put things back the way they were. Still no sound! Nothing out of the Kurzweils, OR the Montage. No MIDI data at all. I think my Edirol UM-550 just died on me. But that doesn't explain why no sound direct to the Montage either. I only get sound in Local mode on Montage. Cakewalk isn't sending nor receiving MIDI anymore. I've gone over the MIDI devices list and the Instrument definitions. All correct.
All this because my 3 manuals organ template cwt file kept defaulting to UM550 port 4 as input, instead of saving the Montage -3 ch 2 as input for the pedal track. So I removed Port 4 UM550 from Device list and everything stopped working. PUt it back and STILL nothing working!! I cannot undo this hidden 'damage' to the system for some reason.
Best Regards,
Mark
-----------------------------------
Kurzweil K2600RS, K2500RS, PC2RO, ExpressionMate Ribbon
Roland A80, Peavey PC1600, Yamaha FS1R, Motif Rack XS, Montage 8
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Re: Integrating Montage 8 Into My Studio-Some Oddities

Unread post by Basspig » Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:03 am

After a lot of backing off and revisiting the problem from afar, the mystery cleared itself just as mysteriously as it appeared.

Now, the remaining mysteries are:

1. How to program the sliders to control volume of each channel/part

2. How to transpose the MIDI data from left and right zones up and down 2 octaves so the sounds are in the right ranges.

3. How to get ensemble playback without losing the higher velocity notes on piano.

Slow, arduous progress. And a call into Yamaha for tech support.
Best Regards,
Mark
-----------------------------------
Kurzweil K2600RS, K2500RS, PC2RO, ExpressionMate Ribbon
Roland A80, Peavey PC1600, Yamaha FS1R, Motif Rack XS, Montage 8
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