ESP is still not optimized.

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sonic2000gr Greece
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Re: ESP is still not optimized.

Unread post by sonic2000gr »

I have a Mac Mini M2 specifically for Cubase and related programs. But I do run Cubase on my Windows machine sometimes.
Mac is really superior for audio work, esp since the way it handles sound devices is better than the ASIO mess needed in Windows.
In a pinch you could actually use the built-in audio with decent performance, even without a USB interface.
But I guess to run multiple ESP instances you would probably need a beefed up Mac.
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Saul Ukraine
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Re: ESP is still not optimized.

Unread post by Saul »

I know we are going off on a tangent here but I guess it is relevant in a way but, I have considered a Mac Mini running either the M1 or M2 cpu in the past. My main concerns were the lack of memory expandability. The base model only comes with 8GB but then again, macOS is very efficient with its use of resources🤔 I still think I would want 16GB though and would lean towards the M2 rather than the M1 as that provides for at least another two, possibly three OS updates.

My AMD Hackintosh is fine at the moment but of course it is not Apple silicon and there are advantages to going with Apple hardware. I will have to mull it over but I can see myself moving to Apple hardware at some point in the not too distant future.
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Re: ESP is still not optimized.

Unread post by DeltaJockey »

Saul wrote: Tue Jul 09, 2024 10:35 am The base model only comes with 8GB but then again, macOS is very efficient with its use of resources🤔 I still think I would want 16GB though and would lean towards the M2 rather than the M1 as that provides for at least another two, possibly three OS updates.

FWIW,
Even though they are more memory efficient, I wouldn't have an Apple Silicon Mac with anything less than 16GB of RAM for the current music software, especially the ESP!
Even if you were able to upgrade the RAM, I think it would be prudent to start at 16 anyway. Otherwise you would buy the base model with 8, and find you'd be upgrading pretty soon after.
Also, with less RAM, the SSD may have to work harder, would also benefit in life span by not getting any less than 500GB.
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Re: ESP is still not optimized.

Unread post by Saul »

Yes but the price difference between the 8GB ram/256GB storage Mac Mini and the 16GB/500Gb storage option is way too large. Cost vs Benefits just doesn't add up. Buying used would be the only option for me if I wanted 16GB. Storage is not such an issue as I could use an external drive.

I do like the M2 Mac Mini but when you start drilling down into the spec it begins to look like very poor value for money given what I have now.
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ChrisN United States of America
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Re: ESP is still not optimized.

Unread post by ChrisN »

Saul wrote: Tue Jul 09, 2024 9:19 am
ChrisN wrote: Tue Jul 09, 2024 8:54 am
…and while some will say get a Mac and not worry, unfortunately that is not 100% the case in every scenario and every case.
That is always going to be true to a degree but Apple and their software vendors are not having to contend with myriad configurations of hardware. This is why the mac is such a stable platform for musicians, website developers and artists. Less time battling with the tech and more time being creative.

I have two macs. An old mac pro from 2009 which still works absolutely fine and I have macOS Sonoma running on it. And my daily workhorse which is an AMD Ryzen based Hackintosh which I think I have been running since around 2015. I built this machine after my iMac died and I couldn't afford to spend what was then well over a grand to buy a new one.

The only software I have ever had trouble running on this machine was Cubase but the latest version seems to run without any problems. It is though too complex for my needs. Oh an virtualization doesn't work on the AMD based Hackintosh platform but I rarely need that. If I do I can switch over to the mac pro.

I am not sure how well the ESP sofware would work but given that I have a pretty hefty machine and it easily meets the maximum requirements I think it would be ok. Although I am not going to take out a mortgage and buy a Montage M just to find out 😂

So the mac platform is worth considering at least 👍
Just to clear I don’t think I ever had a problem that I couldn’t figure out on a Windows machine. The first thing I always do is undo or implement those things that mess with Windows as a “workstation”. It’s getting harder to do and I wish MS would release some sort of creative content “workstation” version of Windows someday. Get rid of all the bloat.

As far as Mac (and like Windows) much has to do with the type processor and processor support hardware, the time period and OS upgrades in the past 20 years having differing bug issues. Wasn’t there a time when they permanently killed the previous versions of Logic with an OS upgrade? Which wasn’t really a bug.

I have always been an Intel/Windows person. Much of that was when the power to price benefit always benefited a Windows machine over a Mac. This is not as much a motivating factor now, but still a consideration. Also, I was building my own systems. When it’s time to sink some money into a new machine I will check out the Macs and price the differences.

I use all Apple mobile devices and think they are pretty unbeatable there. As far as Cubase, it’s a heck of a DAW once you figure out all it can do and how to do it. Which I’m still trying to accomplish after 20 years.😉

As far as ESP, I run it on a nothing special Windows Laptop and I think have had 4 instances going with no problem in a project. I think ESP is not the problem if anyone is having issues.
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Re: ESP is still not optimized.

Unread post by ChrisDuncan »

I've always been a Windows guy, in large part because I've paid the bills as a software developer for 35 years on Microsoft tech. And yet, all my mobile gizmos are Apple because I love the polish on the products that I didn't seen when previously running Android.

Whether it's computers or mobile, all the brands really do the same things, just like different DAWs. I don't think there's any inherent superiority between them. The main reason I stay Windows has nothing to do with whether or not Macs are cool. Windows is what I know, and I'd rather spend time making music than learning a new tech environment.

Regarding the ESP plugin, I'm hoping when the do subsequent updates that they'll also look at making it a more standard VST3 instrument. This is the only vst I've ever had, in decades, that Cubase would not recognize. This tells me that the Yamaha devs are somehow not following the spec correctly. And of course, the irony in this is that Yamaha owns Steinberg. Clearly they keep in touch about as much as a parent does with teenagers.
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Derek Wales
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Re: ESP is still not optimized.

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ChrisDuncan wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2024 6:19 pm I've always been a Windows guy, in large part because I've paid the bills as a software developer for 35 years on Microsoft tech. And yet, all my mobile gizmos are Apple because I love the polish on the products that I didn't seen when previously running Android.

Whether it's computers or mobile, all the brands really do the same things, just like different DAWs. I don't think there's any inherent superiority between them. The main reason I stay Windows has nothing to do with whether or not Macs are cool. Windows is what I know, and I'd rather spend time making music than learning a new tech environment.

Regarding the ESP plugin, I'm hoping when the do subsequent updates that they'll also look at making it a more standard VST3 instrument. This is the only vst I've ever had, in decades, that Cubase would not recognize. This tells me that the Yamaha devs are somehow not following the spec correctly. And of course, the irony in this is that Yamaha owns Steinberg. Clearly they keep in touch about as much as a parent does with teenagers.
I have no issues with ESP in Cubase on PC, and have run four instances of it with simple performances (but I do have a monster 24 core CPU) with no problems. But even on that CPU, ESP crapped out on complex performances, which suggests it is not clever at dividing parts across cores.

I am Apple for my main computer, phone and tablet, and I love the fact that it just works and they are all integrated. But for my music/video computers I go PC for the cost/performance ratio. Also as I develop Java Apps it makes sense to have both Apple and PC available for testing, and there is still the odd VST I have that is PC only.
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Re: ESP is still not optimized.

Unread post by Derek »

Saul wrote: Tue Jul 09, 2024 3:24 pm Yes but the price difference between the 8GB ram/256GB storage Mac Mini and the 16GB/500Gb storage option is way too large. Cost vs Benefits just doesn't add up. Buying used would be the only option for me if I wanted 16GB. Storage is not such an issue as I could use an external drive.

I do like the M2 Mac Mini but when you start drilling down into the spec it begins to look like very poor value for money given what I have now.
That's why when I brought my last Mac a few years ago, I brought the basic model re memory and upgraded the memory myself using 3rd party memory parts. It was way cheaper.
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Saul Ukraine
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Re: ESP is still not optimized.

Unread post by Saul »

Derek wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2024 8:30 pm That's why when I brought my last Mac a few years ago, I brought the basic model re memory and upgraded the memory myself using 3rd party memory parts. It was way cheaper.
But you cannot upgrade the memory in the M1 or M2 Mac Mini. What you buy is what you are stuck with.
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Re: ESP is still not optimized.

Unread post by ChrisDuncan »

Derek wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2024 8:28 pm I have no issues with ESP in Cubase on PC
"But it works on my box..."

Clearly you're a software developer. :) (so am I)

My work has always been on Microsoft tech (starting with DOS 3.1 / C) but these days any outside dev work I do is web based. While I find that platform to be terribly limited compared to what I could do on a native client app in C++ or C#, I don't envy you doing Java work and having to test on multiple native platforms. For basic ui / db stuff, the web is usually close enough for rock and roll. While there are always browser compatibility issues (looking at you, Angular), it's far less than the dll hell you get with native dev work.

ESP installed okay on my laptop, but I couldn't even run one instance without crackling and audio issues. It's an i7 with 16 gigs of memory, so while that's not a monster it should be tough enough. However, in fairness, this laptop was a regular user box that I just threw in front of the Kronos to get to Cubase, so I haven't done any tuning for audio.

On my two desktops, it's not that ESP won't run, it's that the Cubase vst scanner simply doesn't find / recognize it. Obviously it's environmental, but in over two decades of using Cubase I've never had a vst not be recognized. Whether or not it ran well is a different conversation, but the entries in the appropriate Cubase xml files simply don't exist for the plugin.

Consequently, I lay that at the feet of the Yamaha devs. All other vst3 plugins work, so clearly they're not following the spec correctly.

That said, ESP was always just a nice to have anyway. I don't do a lot of sound design. I was primarily interested in it as a librarian, but from what I've read, that functionality is a bit weak, so I'll just do it the old fashioned way via USB drives.

Are you the Derek who writes librarian software for Kronos among others? I think I've bumped into you on their forum.
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Re: ESP is still not optimized.

Unread post by ChrisN »

I had to chuckle because Dom released this video today. Considering the discussion here this is very timely. I’m sure everything he is saying is more than accurate. I did leave this comment below for a bit of a reality check. As I said, I’m not trying to be an ass, but I remember when Apple introduced the Mac Studio and I started to price a reasonably muscular machine and fell over from shock at the price. Then priced a MacBook Pro and still was going to spend at least $1000 more for an equivalent PC. At the time I just couldn’t justify the money. I’m not professional.

Anyway, I’m sure I would love and be amazed at the power and stability of the Mac Studio or even a decent MacBook.

”It would be nice to show an honest expenditure amount you acquired going to the level of Mac that makes it so very nice. Just for a little reality check for those who don’t understand what type of money you laid down. Not trying to be an ass. As you said you’re a professional and time is money and the tools you need are critical.”

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Re: ESP is still not optimized.

Unread post by ChrisDuncan »

ChrisN wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2024 9:29 pm I started to price a reasonably muscular machine and fell over from shock at the price.
This is why I've never experimented with Apple. Even buying one of their inexpensive little brick computers looks cheap until you add the Apple compatible peripherals like monitors, etc. Suddenly there's nothing cheap about it.

I think that's one of the things in the Mac vs PC wars. Marketing 101 takes advantage of public belief that if something's more expensive, it must be better. Apple has always been more expensive, so there you go.

As a case in point, I bought Nuendo back in the 1.0 days when the price was similar to Cubase, only a couple of hundred more expensive. No one could compete against Pro Tools because "that's what the professionals use." So, they were trying to get a seat at the table for film post, but no love.

Then they did a dot release (something like 1.42) that was really just a few bug fixs. But the price jumped from $800 to $2400. Shortly after that, you saw pro oriented magazines like Mix gushing over this powerful new tool for audio post. Because now that it's not cheap, it can considered to be of professional quality. :roll:

So, I realize it's not as good as Apple because it's way cheaper, but I think I'll keep rocking my little Windows boxes and take all those thousands of dollars I save to buy keyboards.
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Re: ESP is still not optimized.

Unread post by ChrisN »

ChrisDuncan wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2024 9:08 pm On my two desktops, it's not that ESP won't run, it's that the Cubase vst scanner simply doesn't find / recognize it. Obviously it's environmental, but in over two decades of using Cubase I've never had a vst not be recognized. Whether or not it ran well is a different conversation, but the entries in the appropriate Cubase xml files simply don't exist for the plugin.
Did you make sure to Activate it using the online Steinberg Activation manager? Someone else had this problem and I don’t know if they ever got it straight. It’s so weird to me because everything went so smoothly for me. I will say I have gotten use to Steinberg’s new Download, installation and activation process which overall will be better than eLicenser, but can still be a bit confusing at first.

RE: your laptop and E.S.P. running bad.
16 Gigs Ram is getting on the light side these days. I wonder what type storage you are using? I imagine not using solid state drives might be a bottleneck. Finally one of the main culprits of DPC issues was due to having the full nVidia GeForce gaming drivers installed with performance utility. I don’t what graphics you have, but that’s worth a look. Unfortunately this isn’t everything that can cause issues. Just thought of passing along some info.✌️
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Re: ESP is still not optimized.

Unread post by Saul »

There is no "one size fits all" scenario here. Some prefer Windows and others prefer Mac. You use whichever platform you are most comfortable with and hopefully it will do all you need it to do.

I must admit that I really do not like Windows. And that is not because of the user interface. Windows 11 is pretty nice. It is the never ending updates and the constant requirement to restart your machine, when it then starts downloading more. For me it is just plain tedious. I can guarantee that everytime I boot up my Windows drive I will spend time not only waiting for a usable desktop but then going through the stuff that loads in the background and the inevitable Windows updates. If they could crack that nut I would be a lot happier using it.

With macOS I boot up and that's it. Done! An instant, workable desktop and everything just works. Now that is not to say that Apple doesn't drop the ball occassionally. They are famous or should I say infamous for breaking Logic Pro with each new version of the OS, which is really odd because they own it 😂 But I am not a big user of Logic so it is not something that has ever affected me.

Mac hardware has sometimes been overly expensive for what it is. Of course you have to factor in the total cost of ownership and mac owners tend to keep their machines longer so when you spread the cost over time owned it is not as bad as it may first seem. However there is no denying that getting into the Mac ecosystem can be painful on the bank balance. Unless of course you go down the Hackintosh route, but I am not sure how much longer that will be viable. I reckon within the next year or two, Mac OS updates will only be available to those using Apple silicon. Right now I am running Ventura and I could potentially run Sonoma but I don't see any need to do that yet. I have another machine I could try it on though 🤔

And let's not forget that sofware that runs on today's OS will, at some point, not work on a future OS version. So even if I am happy running Ventura for the next couple of years I will inevitably find software that doe not want to run.

I will eventually have to jump to Apple silicon. I can't see any other option.
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Re: ESP is still not optimized.

Unread post by ChrisDuncan »

ChrisN wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2024 10:06 pm Did you make sure to Activate it using the online Steinberg Activation manager?

RE: your laptop and E.S.P. running bad.
Always appreciate people trying to help, thanks man.

Yeah, I confirmed it's activated, and I did the exact same steps (many times over) on the desktop that I did on the laptop. By rights it should be visible, but it's not. Long thread on Cubase, emails to both company support staff (both unanswered), etc. It's buggy and apparently not reliable across all environments.

16 gigs is indeed pretty slim these days, but I do classic rock and don't have projects with 200 tracks, so the laptop holds up pretty well overall. Nonetheless, all the things you mentioned are spot on. I just never took the time to optimize the laptop for audio. Probably because I'm having too much fun playing with my new toys and computers aren't nearly as fun.
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