What can we assume about the spec of the MODX/MODX+ successor?

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mx49 Germany
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What can we assume about the spec of the MODX/MODX+ successor?

Unread post by mx49 »

For clarification, I do not expect to see a MODX/MODX+ successor before late 2025. I assume that there will one eventually. And I think that we can make assumptions based on the previous models.

The MO, MOX, MOXF and MODX had compatible sound engines with their big siblings, including the same sample set and arpeggios. Based on that, I expect that a MODX successor would include the AN-X engine and 10 GB preset waveforms for AWM2. Due to the hardware architecture, the latter would imply two SWP70s, and presumably also 2x 128 voice stereo polyphony for AWM2.

On the other hand, Yamaha has to reduce the cost somewhere (and also create some artificial limitations). I expect no second screen, and no additional knobs and buttons. Everything that does not require a dedicated physical controller has to be done from the touch screen.
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Re: What can we assume about the spec of the MODX/MODX+ successor?

Unread post by sonic2000gr »

- The AN-X engine will be there
- Somehow polyphony will be less than the M (probably artificially limited). Probably with something like 128+64 for AWM?
- External power supply
- The keybed will be the same as the current MODX. Or, maybe they will add channel (not polyphonic) aftertouch to all models.
- No second screen
- More controls than the original MODX but less than the M. I guess they will add the knobs under the screen.
- Same plastic build as the MODX. In fact they will try to keep the mold as close as possible to the original MODX (like they did to the Montage) to avoid retooling.
- Initial price around 2000 euros. But will soon reduce to about 1500. Unlike the silly distribution system (for Europe) currently with the Montage, MODX-M will be available widely in e-shops like Thomann (and will fly off the shelves, probably).
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Re: What can we assume about the spec of the MODX/MODX+ successor?

Unread post by Saul »

I am not sure they will add ANX to whatever replaces the MODX. And I seriously doubt they would also add aftertouch. Yamaha seems to want to create as large a gap as possible between the mid-range and the top end. There needs to be some premium features that set the Montage line apart from the MODX🤔
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Re: What can we assume about the spec of the MODX/MODX+ successor?

Unread post by sonic2000gr »

Yes, I would say the possibility of aftertouch is slim. Unless the competition (Roland) has already come up with mid-range aftertouch enabled synths. Maybe they will add channel aftertouch to the MODX-M8 only.
But without AN-X there won't be a serious reason to upgrade for current MODX owners. Plus all the Montage M performances that use AN-X won't be present on the MODX-M. So I believe it will be included.
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Re: What can we assume about the spec of the MODX/MODX+ successor?

Unread post by Saul »

Well there wasn't a huge incentive for people to upgrade to the MODX+ but they still did it.

If Yamaha were to add AN-X to the MODX successor there is even less reason to spend double or three times the money on a Montage M. Depending on what they price the new version of the MODX at of course.

My guess is they will follow whatever Roland does. The Fantom 0 is already a compelling competitor to the MODX+ and you can be sure Roland will have already planned way ahead on where this line is going. KORG I think have backed themselves into a corner with the Nautilus but as with Roland they do have their software line to fall back on. Yamaha is behind in that game although there is the slimmest possibility that they could do a full retail release of the ESP software sometime next year🤔
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Re: What can we assume about the spec of the MODX/MODX+ successor?

Unread post by mx49 »

I assume that the development of the MODX/MODX+ successor has already started and that the hardware specs have already been finalized.

I doubt that there will come with (channel) aftertouch.

I expect to see AN-X, although the polyphony might be reduced from 16 to 8 voices.

The polyphony for AWM2 will be interesting. If it would be 128+64, then it would be a step down from the MODX for user samples. I guess it has to be 128+128, because everything else would look artificial.

I am not expecting to see the 6 knobs below the screen. AIUI, they are just shortcuts on the Montage M, which is a good option for reducing costs.
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Re: What can we assume about the spec of the MODX/MODX+ successor?

Unread post by mx49 »

Saul wrote: Tue Jul 09, 2024 3:39 pm Well there wasn't a huge incentive for people to upgrade to the MODX+ but they still did it.
I would describe the MODX+ as a hardware revision, similar to the MX v1/v2. I am a bit surprised how Yamaha managed to create additional demand for it.
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Re: What can we assume about the spec of the MODX/MODX+ successor?

Unread post by Saul »

Marketing and not much else. That is how they created demand for the MODX+. Not that it isn't a good keyboard but I think many of us felt that all they had really done was unlocked the extra features via software?
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Re: What can we assume about the spec of the MODX/MODX+ successor?

Unread post by jammun »

Until Yamaha adds PAT to the M6/M7, there is no reason to create a mid-tier MODX+ successor, as they already have a slightly-above mid-tier Montage. It's just not priced as such. The only thing, to me, that makes the M6/M7 compelling at all is the AN-X engine and at the price why not buy a MODX6+ and the new Oberheim. Same price as the M6, in fact some $600 cheaper.

I can't see them adding AN-X or aftertouch to any mid-tier successor. Nor will they significantly upgrade the internals There has to be some differentiator, else no one is going to drop $3500 on a Montage M6.
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Re: What can we assume about the spec of the MODX/MODX+ successor?

Unread post by vertig0spin »

Ok, I'll take a stab at it with my best guess ;)

I think the MODX+ replacement (I'll call it the 'MOM') will likely have the following basic specs:
- User Memory 1.75 GB (same as the MODX+)
- AWM2 128 Note Polyphony (same as the MODX+)
- FM-X 128 Note Polyphony (same as the MODX+)
- Same Keybeds as the MODX+
- No aftertouch (same as the MODX+)
- Lower grade digital converter, same as the one that's in the MODX+, but perhaps they enhance it a bit like they did on the Montage M going from PAC to PAC2
- Price will be close to the MODX+, but likely a few hundred more
- No E.S.P.

New Features on the MOM synth:
- AN-X Engine with 8 Note Polyphony & all the same functionality as on the Montage M
- Preset Performances and Waveforms - It will have all the same as are on the Montage M, including all the new pianos
- It will have the extra screen on the top left and most of the new improved navigation, except it will only have 4 sliders, 4 knobs, 4 Scene buttons like on the MODX+, but it will 'Not' have the 16 buttons on the right Category and Live Set navigation.
- It will have all the new features like the new Organ Rotary effect, Draw Bar reversal, new Shimmer Reverb & effects
- It will have the same new Ribbon that's in the Montage M with the same functionality for with the new Organ Rotary effect.

They will need to cut everything they can in order to be able to add the AN-X, the new Organ Rotary effects, the extra memory for the new Preset Waveforms/Performances, and to have most of the same functionality as the Montage M. So my guess is that it will have a single SWP70 tone generator like in the MODX+, but they will add the same new processor & fan for the AN-X.
That's what I think it will have. Will that be enough to create the sales power that the MODX classic had, as well as trade-ups from the MODX/MODX+ ..!? :think:
Time will tell, but IMHO adding the AN-X engine, all the new functionality/effects, the enhanced navigation & menus, and all those new Waveforms/Performances, especially all the numerous new pianos (plus any new features they add to the Montage M in OS 2.5) I think a great number of people will be hungry for all of those at half the price & weight of the Montage M... ;)

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Re: What can we assume about the spec of the MODX/MODX+ successor?

Unread post by mx49 »

vertig0spin wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2024 2:58 am They will need to cut everything they can in order to be able to add the AN-X, the new Organ Rotary effects, the extra memory for the new Preset Waveforms/Performances, and to have most of the same functionality as the Montage M. So my guess is that it will have a single SWP70 tone generator like in the MODX+, but they will add the same new processor & fan for the AN-X.
AIUI, an SWP70 can only address 4 GB of physical sample storage. If the MODX successor contains all the preset waveforms from the Montage M plus some space for user waveforms, then they need two SWP70s. Or they would need to change the hardware architecture, which seems less likely.
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Re: What can we assume about the spec of the MODX/MODX+ successor?

Unread post by mx49 »

jammun wrote: Tue Jul 09, 2024 7:35 pm I can't see them adding AN-X or aftertouch to any mid-tier successor. Nor will they significantly upgrade the internals There has to be some differentiator, else no one is going to drop $3500 on a Montage M6.
The main differentiator is the quality of the hardware components, and in particular the keybed. That was the case with MOXF and Motif XF, and with MODX and Montage. There are people who care about that and are willing to pay extra for it.

There are also people who do not care about the hardware quality and the feel of the keybed. That's the reason why keyboards like the MOXF and MODX exist and sell well. I expect to see a budget-friendly MODX successor, with AN-X, the preset AWM2 waveforms of the Montage M, and with 128 AWM2 elements per part.
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Re: What can we assume about the spec of the MODX/MODX+ successor?

Unread post by JFP »

It will have a shitty Keybed, that’s for sure. The main draw for opting for a montage. As with the previous generation (Modx+ versus original Montage) the engine was basically the same. Only SSS 4 parts versus 8 as only noticeable difference. And the converters on the Montage had better quality + balanced outs. The rest was a matter of taste - more hands on controls, but also more weight, versus less - but still sufficient - controls and less weight.

All in all I never regret having bought the M7 and get rid of the MODX7+. The Keybed was so bad, that you’d had to lug an extra keyboard as controller anyway, so the weight advantage evaporated in practice. Better a better build heavier unit and be done, than towing several keyboard cause the one with the audio engine is so crappy to play. No advantage there, unless you dig the Modx Keybed. Leaves the price.

Montage is overpriced IMHO. But still I love it. Despite the minimal changes, but they are just enough to convince me to waste my money on them. Especially the faster GUI and faster workflow. All minor changes but in total they are worth it because it makes it nicer to use. For the extra waveforms - nah. Most were old expansion packs anyway (felt, Nashville, Upright, Bosendorfer). You can easily get those on the old montage and MODX. Only Hamburg, one strings set, CFX2 and CP80 stage and some drum sounds are really new.

Resampled that and put it into user memory to use the full extra polyphony. That is still a shame: the useless extra 128 voices as long as you don’t have anything useful in user RAM. Meaning presets still have audible voice stealing. How can you Yamaha. Not for that kind of money and developing time. Neither the absence of PAT on the M6 and M7. Nevertheless. No more MODX line for me. Feels too cheap, despite similarities in sound engine.
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Re: What can we assume about the spec of the MODX/MODX+ successor?

Unread post by Saul »

vertig0spin wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2024 2:58 am I think a great number of people will be hungry for all of those at half the price & weight of the Montage M... ;)

Darryl
And that, is exactly why they won't do it. What is essentially a Montage M for half the price? Better to have a lower end keyboard, much like the MODX+ is now along with a nice hefty price and quality differential to the top end.

It is a fine balancing act. They want people to be happy with the MODX+ or it's replacement but not so happy that they don't hanker after all those top end features. They want you to aspire to "upgrading" rather than stick with what you have.

I just look back across Yamaha's range of instruments and see that most have had incremental updates only. It is how Yamaha operates.

I would be very happy to see Yamaha come out with a MODX+ replacment that had AN-X, second screen etc but I just don't think they will do it :(
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Re: What can we assume about the spec of the MODX/MODX+ successor?

Unread post by vertig0spin »

Saul wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2024 11:05 am And that, is exactly why they won't do it. What is essentially a Montage M for half the price? Better to have a lower end keyboard, much like the MODX+ is now along with a nice hefty price and quality differential to the top end.

It is a fine balancing act. They want people to be happy with the MODX+ or it's replacement but not so happy that they don't hanker after all those top end features. They want you to aspire to "upgrading" rather than stick with what you have.

I just look back across Yamaha's range of instruments and see that most have had incremental updates only. It is how Yamaha operates.

I would be very happy to see Yamaha come out with a MODX+ replacment that had AN-X, second screen etc but I just don't think they will do it :(
You make some good points, so I now think it's going to be a close call & I'm just barely leaning on the side that they will in fact add the AN-X, while bumping the price up a few hundred from what the MODX+ is. :think:

My reasoning is simply that they will repeat what they did so successfully with the MODX classic, whereby they gave people ALL of the engines, sounds/waveforms, Performances, etc. of the Montage classic, but watered it down using cheaper keybeds, half the knobs, slides, buttons, throttled polyphony, etc.
Maybe they add a less expensive processor that is not as powerful as the one in the Montage M..!?

But I think they will follow the same pattern as they did with the MODX.

I don't think it will be essentially a Montage M for half the price (any more than the MODX was to the Montage classic), because you won't get the E.S.P. plugin, it will only have 8 note AN-X polyphony, less AWM2 polyphony, no aftertouch, cheaper keybed, cheaper AD converter, etc., but all the sounds including AN-X along with the new Organ Rotary effect, etc, which is what will set it apart from the MODX+ & the competition. So, there is still great incentive for many to buy the Montage M, but the MODX+ replacement synth will be an option many will choose over whatever Roland or Korg's options are, because it has all the sounds of the flagship synth.

I will add one additional thing that they may remove from what my post was above. I think they will remove the extra screen on the top left, so the new MODX+ replacement won't have that either...

So I still stand by my guess, for now :o ... and we'll see what they actually do in a year or two lol ;)
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