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Confused Beginner. Appreciate some help..

This section is for users of the Yamaha CK61 & CK88

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amwilburn Canada
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Re: Confused Beginner. Appreciate some help..

Unread post by amwilburn »

Yeah a lot of Yamaha P series now has record and share (P225 /525 with built in audio interface as well).

Yup, CK series are great, easy to navigate, great sounds, built in speakers! And very light!
As pjd suggested, the CSP's are very simple to use (PS500 is a portable CSP) they have sequencing, audio recording (with infinite ping pong overdubs), built in styles, but currently no way to write your own beats/ loops (I don't know if that's important)

The Junods is a nice little board, but no built in speakers (does that matter to you?) also light.

Only the pro PSR's (psrsx series, Genos series) have onboard style making, but all of them have built in sequencers and on-board speakers.

If you just want to jam on a piano with built in speakers, *some* beats, audio interface so that you can record audio direclty into your cell phone while filming? P225/P525 would do the trick, but only have about 20 on board beats.

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RoundedPlants Singapore
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Re: Confused Beginner. Appreciate some help..

Unread post by RoundedPlants »

pjd wrote: Thu Aug 22, 2024 7:29 pm Hi --

I'm glad you've sorted through all of the options.

Yeah, the PSS-A50 has limited connectivity. Sounds like you may need a small mixer if you want to record vocals and the PSS-A50 simultaneously. (It's always another piece of gear, isn't it? :roll: ) Otherwise, you would need to lay down each track individually and then mix the tracks. The PSS-A50 headphone can be connected to other audio equipment (like a mixer) as long as one is careful with audio levels.

Perhaps there is a tablet-/phone-based DAW? I understand the reluctance to buy a personal computer, too.

I'll be on and off the Web for the next days. Take care -- pj

P.S. Neat video.
If I only want to record the A50 sound on my phone without singing, I'll prolly use the headphone jack to a 3.5 to usb c adaptor and plug into my phone and use the camera app?

For more professional recording of playing and vocals I think the CK61 solves all my issue demonstrated in 41:20 of this clip. I guess CK61 it shall be :lol:

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Re: Confused Beginner. Appreciate some help..

Unread post by RoundedPlants »

amwilburn wrote: Fri Aug 23, 2024 1:09 am Yeah a lot of Yamaha P series now has record and share (P225 /525 with built in audio interface as well).

Yup, CK series are great, easy to navigate, great sounds, built in speakers! And very light!
As pjd suggested, the CSP's are very simple to use (PS500 is a portable CSP) they have sequencing, audio recording (with infinite ping pong overdubs), built in styles, but currently no way to write your own beats/ loops (I don't know if that's important)

The Junods is a nice little board, but no built in speakers (does that matter to you?) also light.

Only the pro PSR's (psrsx series, Genos series) have onboard style making, but all of them have built in sequencers and on-board speakers.

If you just want to jam on a piano with built in speakers, *some* beats, audio interface so that you can record audio direclty into your cell phone while filming? P225/P525 would do the trick, but only have about 20 on board beats.

Mark
For that I'll be able to use my CLP745 for the exact same purpose. And after reading up so much I realized the only way to connect a mic and CLP745 to my phone is to use an audio interface.

Alternatively, I can spend my money on the CK61 and have a new 'toy' with built in audio interface :lol:
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Re: Confused Beginner. Appreciate some help..

Unread post by amwilburn »

It's a good choice... unless you need 88 weighted keys, then the ck88! (which is still light-ish at <29 lbs)

So very easy to navigate as well!

If you already have a CLP745, the P525 is completely redundant (it's essentially the portable version of the same thing); for a mic plug though, you *might* want to consider the PS500 (the portable version of CSP150) or even the humble DGX670. But they're both 47lbs!!!

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Re: Confused Beginner. Appreciate some help..

Unread post by RoundedPlants »

Hi guys

Slight update ! I have the CK61 on backorder right now and it'll be scheduled to arrive in 2 weeks time.

Just out of curiosity as I'm still relatively confused with it's usage intentions before I finalize the collection of my CK61. Why would someone pick a stage piano over an arranger or synthesizer ? E.g why pick CK61 over a SX700 over MODX ? Who uses what and for what purpose ?

Assuming my priorities have now changed. What would be my best option ?

1. Best piano/pad/strings sounds ( I recently learnt about layering piano and pads while playing with the CK and they sound great!)
2. Ease of connecting to phone and recording with phone camera (likely via USB audio)
3. 61 Keys (as I already have a CLP I'm looking for something portable to put on my desk)

Are any of these (ck61, Modx, sx700) going to sound as good as my CLP745 for piano? Yes the CLP have dual mode with strings and pads but somehow I don't know why when layered together it sounds so much better on the CK. Maybe due to the fact I can adjust the levels of the layers on the CK and not on the CLP.

Out of the 3 (sx700, ck61, Modx), which can I get the best piano sound from ?
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Re: Confused Beginner. Appreciate some help..

Unread post by sonic2000gr »

RoundedPlants wrote: Thu Sep 12, 2024 1:24 am Are any of these (ck61, Modx, sx700) going to sound as good as my CLP745 for piano? Yes the CLP have dual mode with strings and pads but somehow I don't know why when layered together it sounds so much better on the CK. Maybe due to the fact I can adjust the levels of the layers on the CK and not on the CLP.
You can adjust the levels on the CLP. You just need to go to the menu (Voice Menu => Voice edit => Volume). You can expect a home piano like yours to always 'sound better' ( = more true to the real instrument) than a stage piano, as typically a home piano not only has weighted keys but also goes to great length to reproduce the nuances of an acoustic (sympathetic resonance, damper noise etc) that won't matter much on a stage piano. The stage piano is meant to mostly be played mixed with other instruments rather than solo, hence the sound is or can be adjusted so it does get 'on top'. Plus there are plenty of effects on board usually that far exceed what you get on a home piano.

That said, the pianos on Montage and MODX+ are great, and combining them with any other of the thousands sounds in these boards make for impressive performances. But unless you go for the MODX 8, you are only getting synth keybeds.
If portability is an issue as you say 61 or maybe 76 keys would work. 88 is already way too big and depending on the keybed can also get very heavy. CK61 is the most portable of all, has built in speakers for a quick jam and can run on batteries.

It's difficult to say which of the three (sx700 - now 720, CK61, MODX) has the best pianos. Yamaha probably reuses the samples on all of these and is also well known for the amazing piano/acoustic instrument sounds. I doubt you can go wrong with any on sound alone. But:

- SX line is an arranger, so the main selling point is styles, I would not buy if not intending to use them. Quite portable, very capable speakers, amazing interface, one man band machine.
- CK is a stage keyboard, instant tweakability, layering etc. Not as much deep editing though. Small speakers and battery power make for a nice on the go instrument. Very compact and portable.
- MODX, synthesizer, start with the built in sounds, create absolutely anything, the sky is the limit. Very compact (MODX 6), portable (Yamaha has a soft case with shoulder straps, I have it and can really be carried) but no speakers or battery.
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Re: Confused Beginner. Appreciate some help..

Unread post by pjd »

Great reply, sonic2000gr.

Where I give MODX the edge in pianos among the three options -- expansion.

The CFX grand and C7 studio grands are pretty good. However, you can download a Bösendorfer and character pianos (felt, U1 upright, C3 studio grand) for free. The freebie pianos are at YamahaMusicoft, YamahaShop, or whatever they are calling this thing now.

MODX gives you the ability to tweak and tweeze sounds out the wazoo. Of course, this means learning the instrument in depth -- some folks don't have the time or inclination to do that. Having climbed the learning curve, MODX6 rewards me every day.

Hope these comments help -- pj
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Re: Confused Beginner. Appreciate some help..

Unread post by amwilburn »

sonic2000gr wrote: Thu Sep 12, 2024 5:00 am

It's difficult to say which of the three (sx700 - now 720, CK61, MODX) has the best pianos. Yamaha probably reuses the samples on all of these and is also well known for the amazing piano/acoustic instrument sounds. I doubt you can go wrong with any on sound alone. But:
720 piano *should* be identical to sx900. So, ok.
Between them I'd' rate Modx > CP88 > CK61/88 (none of the new expansions on CP88) > sx900

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Re: Confused Beginner. Appreciate some help..

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RoundedPlants wrote: Thu Sep 12, 2024 1:24 am why pick CK61 over a SX700 over MODX ? Who uses what and for what purpose ?
CK61 - the one that is easiest to use, and the only one with real-time 9-drawbar organ control, and the most portable (smallest/lightest and runs on batteries)

SX700 - the one that is suited for playing over backing tracks that are generated on the fly (based on the style you pick, and the notes you are playing, and your selection of variation buttons)

MODX - not counting the particular strengths I mentioned of the ones listed above, this is the one that has the most capabilities overall (sample-based and FM synthesis, all sounds deeply editable, up to 8 keyboard-playable parts at a time with two effects a piece, the most MIDI and sequencer functionality, etc.). Though it's also the only one of the three without built-in speakers.
RoundedPlants wrote: Thu Sep 12, 2024 1:24 am Out of the 3 (sx700, ck61, Modx), which can I get the best piano sound from ?
In part, this depends on which Yamaha piano sound you like best. As PJD said, the MODX gives you more available different piano sounds than you can get from the CK61, but that may not matter much, i.e. if the CFX happens to be your favorite of the bunch and the one you always end up using anyway. (Which isn't to say that the CFX necessarily sounds identical on the different keyboards, either.) But also, to me, equally important as "which has the best piano sound" is how well playable the piano sounds are from the particular action, and I think the CK61 action is more piano-friendly than is the MODX6 action.

With all that in mind, I'll give you a fourth Yamaha possibility here: the YC61. I think its action for piano playing is better than either the CK61 or MODX6, and it also gives you a pretty wide range of acoustic pianos characters to choose from besides (CFX, S700, C7, U1, Hamburg, Felt).
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Re: Confused Beginner. Appreciate some help..

Unread post by RoundedPlants »

Thank you all for your kind responses !

I've been watching synthesizer videos and realized they're mostly used for electronic music. I mainly play acoustic pop classics like "Can't Help Falling in Love," "Make You Feel My Love," "Hallelujah," "Let It Be," etc.

I like the look of the Fantom and Montage, but I'm worried they might be too complicated. The CK can layer up to three sounds. Do people layer more than that? I grew up with a CVP309 and main playing style is piano or one touch instruments with accompaniment, chords for singing together, etc.

If I already have a CLP745 (I mainly use Cfx or borsendorfer layered with pad) what would you recommend? I'm trying to avoid making the wrong decision. I recently learned layering piano, pads, and strings sounds great. Would I ever need to layer more than that? And what advantages do the Montage, MODX, or Fantom have over the CK?

Sorry for being wishy washy, just trying to avoid making the wrong decision.
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Re: Confused Beginner. Appreciate some help..

Unread post by sonic2000gr »

RoundedPlants wrote: Tue Sep 24, 2024 4:13 pm If I already have a CLP745 (I mainly use Cfx or borsendorfer layered with pad) what would you recommend? I'm trying to avoid making the wrong decision. I recently learned layering piano, pads, and strings sounds great. Would I ever need to layer more than that? And what advantages do the Montage, MODX, or Fantom have over the CK?
You will be layering more sounds on Montage / MODX if for example you decide to use the amazing arpeggiators in these machines. They are not limited to the usual up/down variety, they actually create styles and you can run 8 of them at the same time. Goes into arranger territory if you are patient enough. And it's also programmable.

You will also get lots and lots of more sounds/performances plus synth engines to create your own (from scratch, if you wish). Beware, it's a very steep learning curve. As discussed many times around here, many people get Montage/MODX and end up using it as a preset machine. If you're not interested in this maybe a CK/YC would be better.

Oh, and to make your decision even more difficult Roland just released today a Juno-D update 8)
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Re: Confused Beginner. Appreciate some help..

Unread post by anotherscott »

RoundedPlants wrote: Tue Sep 24, 2024 4:13 pm I've been watching synthesizer videos and realized they're mostly used for electronic music. I mainly play acoustic pop classics like "Can't Help Falling in Love," "Make You Feel My Love," "Hallelujah," "Let It Be," etc.
The term "synthesizer' covers a broad range of boards. Some synthesizers are not suitable for piano playing and the like. But a keyboard like Fantom or Montage (which are also synthesizers) are fully capable of covering a full range of acoustic and electronic instrument sounds.
RoundedPlants wrote: Tue Sep 24, 2024 4:13 pm The CK can layer up to three sounds. Do people layer more than that?
Sometimes. But the advantage of more parts isn't just layering. It's also splitting different sounds across the keyboard, or using some parts to play backing tracks or sounds triggered externally (from a sequencer or another keyboard), or being able to bring different parts in while playing (e.g. a MODX performance might have 8 sounds in it, but it doesn't mean you're playing all 8 sounds all the time... which ones are sounding can depend on things like which notes you're playing, which scene you've activated, where your various part volume controls are).
RoundedPlants wrote: Tue Sep 24, 2024 4:13 pm And what advantages do the Montage, MODX, or Fantom have over the CK?
I'd sum it up this way: Philosophically, the CK is about making it as easy as possible to do the things most people most often need to do. The MODX/Montage/Fantom are about letting you do almost anything you could imagine... but the trade-off is that doing those "things most people most often need to do" is more complicated than on the board that is designed specifically to do those fewer things much more easily.

But everything is a generalization. Locating and selecting your favorite sounds from the MODX/Montage/Fantom touchscreen is easier than navigating the screen of the CK, for example. Or for another example of what might be an unexpected roadblock on a more limited board, I recently wanted to do a combination on the CK with a 2-sound split, where a third sound would be layered under both sides of the split, but the CK doesn't support that particular arrangement of 3 sounds. Very do-able on any of those others.
RoundedPlants wrote: Tue Sep 24, 2024 4:13 pm I like the look of the Fantom and Montage, but I'm worried they might be too complicated...Sorry for being wishy washy, just trying to avoid making the wrong decision.
A board you use is better than a board you don't. Download manuals and look up videos of how various things are done on the boards you're interested in. If you think a board seems overly complicated, then I'd say you should buy something else, even if it doesn't do everything under the sun or everything you think you might ever want to do. As long as it does the things you know you want to do now, you can enjoy it. If you outgrow its capabilities, trading up some years from now is not a disaster, and a lot better than buying something that you never use because it frustrates you.
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Unread post by pjd »

anotherscott wrote: Tue Sep 24, 2024 6:51 pm
RoundedPlants wrote: Tue Sep 24, 2024 4:13 pm And what advantages do the Montage, MODX, or Fantom have over the CK?
I'd sum it up this way: Philosophically, the CK is about making it as easy as possible to do the things most people most often need to do. The MODX/Montage/Fantom are about letting you do almost anything you could imagine.
AnotherScott hits the nail on the head. MODX has not let me down. However, be prepared to climb the initial learning curve and to keep learning. Fortunately, Montage/MODX are mature products and there are a ton of on-line resources for learning.

Sounds like you're most interested in playing. You'll have fun with either CK or Montage/MODX. Given that Montage is at a higher price tier, maybe start out with a smaller outlay, try, learn and play?

It's hand-on time! (Y)

Good luck -- pj
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Re: Confused Beginner. Appreciate some help..

Unread post by RoundedPlants »

sonic2000gr wrote: Tue Sep 24, 2024 5:13 pm You will be layering more sounds on Montage / MODX if for example you decide to use the amazing arpeggiators in these machines. They are not limited to the usual up/down variety, they actually create styles and you can run 8 of them at the same time. Goes into arranger territory if you are patient enough. And it's also programmable.

You will also get lots and lots of more sounds/performances plus synth engines to create your own (from scratch, if you wish). Beware, it's a very steep learning curve. As discussed many times around here, many people get Montage/MODX and end up using it as a preset machine. If you're not interested in this maybe a CK/YC would be better.

Oh, and to make your decision even more difficult Roland just released today a Juno-D update 8)
So basically, its kindof like creating backing tracks "from scratch" yeah ? So far previously on my old PSR-S I mainly use most of the build in tones, so I'm assuming the difference with the Montage/MODX is it can "create" my own tone to sound more like the original music when I'm playing ? So if I dont really need the exact same instrument sound when I'm playing a song, and I end up using the default "instruments/sounds/patch", then the workstations would be an overkill ?
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Re: Confused Beginner. Appreciate some help..

Unread post by sonic2000gr »

RoundedPlants wrote: Wed Sep 25, 2024 6:37 am So basically, its kindof like creating backing tracks "from scratch" yeah ? So far previously on my old PSR-S I mainly use most of the build in tones, so I'm assuming the difference with the Montage/MODX is it can "create" my own tone to sound more like the original music when I'm playing ? So if I dont really need the exact same instrument sound when I'm playing a song, and I end up using the default "instruments/sounds/patch", then the workstations would be an overkill ?
Let's just say that a synthesizer is really intended to be used to synthesize or create new sounds.
Of course, synths like Fantom, Montage, MODX are usually called 'Romplers' because they have hundreds (or rather now, thousands) of ready sounds/performances many of which belong to acoustic instruments. So many people would buy them and use these instead of creating their own.
Nothing wrong with that, but you are maybe paying a premium for functionality you are not using. Mind you, it doesn't have to be an all-or-nothing affair. Sure, use the presets, maybe start by tweaking them, and continue from there. These synths are really massive.
And there is other stuff too, motion control, multiple effects... And all the other stuff that other people (read anotherscott's reply carefully) have already mentioned.
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