New Styles with a style to voice volume imbalance.

[ChrisHarding]

Hey Guys

I have a bunch of very neat styles in my collection that have volume imbalance .. The OTS volume settings on each of the 4 channels have been set around 100 (max is 127) and still the style overshadows the backing. What you you do with styles like this ..Lift the R1.R2 R3 and Left channels permanently to keep up with the overbearing style volume and simply turn down the master volume or do you balance before starting each song on the keyboard by turning down the style? In the style itself one can of course drop all the midi channel levels with software.

Just interested to know what others do to make new styles playable without lots of fiddling or playing with registrations!

Chris

[BogdanH]

hello Chris,
It think, that it's a waste of time to adjust hundreds of styles in forward. The thing is, every song needs slightly different settings and you'll need to make adjustments later again anyway (to suit the song that you wish to play).

I only make adjustments on the style that I'm about to actually use for my current new song -and for that I take all the time necessary. It happens quite often to me that I say "ok, now it sounds good", but when I play next day again, I notice that "something is not right".
Btw. to adjust volume of each channel in style separately, no additional software is needed. It can be done on keyboard much faster than fiddling with computer.
But everyone has different workflow, I guess.

Bogdan

[ChrisHarding]

Thanks Bogdan

Fair enough but if you are making up sets to play you still need to go thru say 20 different styles and tinker with them so you can play them at a gig without messing around trying to get them right in between songs. Luckily most are pretty close to what I want so I can play them as is! I do realise that you can tweak the OTS side including the left side on the keyboard and then save the style back to a USB but if you had a nice balance on the the right but the actual style was way too loud all you do is drop it's volume slider BUT can you save back to USB so the next time you use it, it will be nicely balanced?

Chris

[BogdanH]

hi Chris,
As I have said, we all might have slightly different workflow. And of course I can only say what I personally think is the right approach.

... but if you had a nice balance on the the right but the actual style was way too loud all you do is drop it's volume slider BUT can you save back to USB so the next time you use it, it will be nicely balanced?

If style is too loud (or too quiet) compared to right hand voices, then that means either style tracks have wrong volumes, or right hand voices are not properly balanced for that particular style.

Style volume in the Mixer is not meant for balancing style and right hand voices. Imagine a real band: a band doesn't change volume on PA system for each song they play -they set volume at the beginning and keep that volume trough whole session.
So what's the purpose of Style volume? One purpose I can imagine is, to slightly silence complete accompaniment when the singer has something to say while band is playing (i.e. introducing new song by telling short story about it, etc.).

Back to balancing the style...
I have downloaded VOL 1 style collection that you have posted in User Styles section. Btw. I have checked few of them and as I have expected, they're actually renamed older preset styles. Anyway, one of those styles is

X9No_More_B 00.zip

Here we have typical example of style (MainA) being too loud compared to RH voices. But we cannot solve the problem by simply reducing style volume, because in that case we will not hear guitar voice in Chord1 and Chord2 track anymore. What we need to do is, reduce the volume of Rhythm2, Bass and Pad track and save the style.
We should keep in mind, that there's extremely rare that we need volume above 100 in any style track -usually tracks have volumes between 60-80 or even lower (depends on song and on voice used).

Bogdan

[ChrisHarding]

Thanks Bogdan

Now that makes far more sense cos as you say the physical loudness might just be the drums or bass tracks that are not only making the backing appear loud but also causing an in-balance when all tracks of the midi are played. I have been in quite a few bands and we actually used to have a VERY loud drummer and we we turned up the other levels he would just hit the skins even harder!! Very wise advice .. I haven't got my keyboard on but I'm assuming that you can drop noisy channels on the keyboard and save the style once you are happy with that? That would be a lot more practical because you can listen to the changed channel mix until it sounds good!! Can you load a style from USB ..adjust a few midi channels and then save the style back to the usb
Yes you are correct about RH voices ..the highest R1 voices seldom exceed 100 (you can only go up to 127 anyway) and the R2 and R3 (if you are using all 3) are best a lot lower as well as the LH voice which I tend to thumb suck at 50 or 60 Thanks again for all your help!

Chris

[BogdanH]

hi Chris,
I see that we understand each other perfectly where the problem usually is. And you're right: RH voice shouldn't exceed volume of 100 (unless there's a reason why). As you say, in most cases main lead voice (R1) is usually 100 and R2 & R3 (if used at the same time), are lower -by how much, it really depends on voices used in combination.
The goal is, the style must have "the right" loudness to be in balance with RH voices -at volume 100 of the style.

For making changes on some style (which includes OTS), it doesn't matter if the style is on USB stick or in User memory. Obviously, if we wish to make changes on preset style, then we must save resulting style either in User memory or on USB stick.

Initial (quick) method for balancing the style
Load the style, play some chord, open Mixer (I think it's MIXING CONSOLE on Tyros 4) and select Style panel -here you can see levels of each track.
Change variations (A..D) while style is playing and observe levels in each variation. Many times the same tracks in all variation are too loud; for example, RHY1 and BASS are clearly too loud in all variations.
Select MainA variation for initial adjustments and reduce tracks volume where needed, so that it sounds fine to you. When you're done, exit Mixer, open StyleCreator, save the style (you can give it new name at this point) and exit StyleCreator. Done.
Keep in mind, that changes that you just made in MainA variation, are applied to all four (A..D) variations!

It can happen that you will say "ok, drums and bass are fine now, but in MainD only Pad track is too loud".
Fine tuning process goes like this (I don't have Tyros, so you'll need to find where the settings are):
1. Load the style and open StyleCreator.
2. While you're in StyleCreator, press MIXING CONSOLE button and select Style panel where you can adjust volume of tracks (the same way as with quick method described above).
3. Press variation D button (because you only wish to make changes in this variation).
4. Adjust volume to desired level. You can listen/play the style while doing that, but do not press any key! -because if you press any key, that note will be recorded into style.
(if needed, you can select another variation to make changes for it)
5. Once you're done, exit MIXING CONSOLE and you will land back inside StyleCreator.
6. Save the style. Done.

I hope that will be of some help for you and others.
Bogdan

[ChrisHarding]

Thanks you good sir !

I will take a look tomorrow as it's close to bedtime over here!!

Chris

[amwilburn]

Yup, I agree wtih Bogdan. It's probably simpler to do 1 of 3 things:
Either make registrations for your songs, where you can set individual volumes for everything and just call up your style(s) that way

Or (and I can't remember if T4 had this, i know T5 did, which forced Genos to get an update to add this, and now so does G2): on the T5 at least (and maybe the T4... I sold our used T4 a couple months ago so I once again have no access to one), but on the T5 if you hit volume twice, there was another set for Keyboard, instead of right 1,2,3, this way you could set the overall volume of all 3 right voices relative to everything else. And it remained from style to style, until you loaded a registration... (but I can't remember if T4 had this option, I only know T5 onward did)

OR just lower your style volume, which also stays from style to style. Then the OTS volumes on the right will be the right relative volume. I'd start with style 70, and tweak from there until you're happy with it. This will not completely solve the problem if the drums and bass are too loud (or indeed, any style track is set to 100 volume) but it'll still help

Mark

[ChrisHarding]

Thanks Mark

I have a feeling that these styles just have too high a level on bass and possibily drums too as you cannot hear any chord channel instruments .. I found I had to drop the overall style volume from 100 down to 60 to get some sort of balance which of course drops the chord channels down as well so you don't hear them at all. On this set I actually have the original midis too so it should be fairly simple to look at the actual midi channels in a midi editor and see what is out of wack!

Chris

[ChrisHarding]

Thanks Bogdan and Mark

Probably the easiest way is as Mark says and once the keyboard is on simply set the style volume to 70 ..Most of the styles I have tested in this batch seem to be pretty balanced once you drop the style volume

Of course the other issue with these ones are that the OTS on most of them have only R1 activated so they remain a bit soft for right hand but if you kick in R2 and R3 they are quite well balanced ..I find it easier to have all 3 come in and I can turn them off during playing rather than the other way around! With Jorgen's OTS editor it's quick and easy to just add a check mark to R1, R2 and R3 and hit File Save so all 3 parts (or even 4 if I want Left as well) come in when you start the style.

Chris

[BogdanH]

I wish to say only one thing.. there's no easy or difficult way: it's either right or wrong way.

Bogdan

[ChrisHarding]

Hi Bogdan
I beg to differ ..There are two ways I see .. difficult and very difficult (I could even add a third being "I give up" ) It a long winded process to actually examine each midi channel and then decide if it should be increased or decreased in Velocity and then examine all 4 OTS channels too!! Even your quick method failed with my inept brain but the second method using the style creator all the way does work. The big issue now becomes technical as you have to decide IF a channel is too loud or not and once that is done you have to decide "by how much exactly" I still reckon that most styles are generated from a fairly balanced midi so in a LOT of cases Mark's thumb suck of dropping the style global volume to 70 would work in most cases! Just for interest The style you selected was one of the few that never had a matching midi file which I thought you might find useful to see if the actual midi was balanced.

As usual your valuable help is very much appreciated

Chris

[DrakeM]

These styles were probably used by somebody who sings with their keyboard.

This is exactly how all my styles are set up so I can use the Vocal Harmonizer that the keyboard contains. Yamaha has all of their styles set for the NON Singer sit and play player. You have to reduce the STYLE volume down to 70 percent in order to properly use the VH2 at the 100 percent level. Then you have to lower all the OTS down to 65 percent. The Right OTS is generally the only voice I reduce. No point in reducing the Left voice as I do not use it to perform the song.

I wish you would have added what Keyboard these styles will work withn properly. Or at least say what keyboard you have and say that they work in it just fine.

Cheers
Drake

[BogdanH]

...
You have to reduce the STYLE volume down to 70 percent in order to properly use the VH2 at the 100 percent level. ...

Correct. But that only works as expected if all tracks inside the style are properly balanced. If that's not the case, then some tracks (instruments) will become too quiet after reducing the volume of the whole style.

I wish you would have added what Keyboard these styles will work with properly...

Few styles that I have checked are dated 1999.

Bogdan

[ChrisHarding]

Hi Drake

No idea ! Do they not play well on your current keyboard? (I didn't know if you had upgraded as yet) I would suspect they are only SFF1 format which would be correct if they are created in 1999 The styles were offered on a Facebook Site and they play OK on my Tyros 4 with no issue .. Why not post an enquiry on the User File forum and ask for some feedback from the people that downloaded them. ie: (1) What Keyboard are you using and (2) Do the styles play OK or did you have to edit them?

I know that Bogdan mentioned 1999 but I like all my style parts turned on (for me it's easier to turn off if I don't want all 4 on) BUT during editing I noticed that a couple of the styles do have SA and even SA2 voices in the OTS ..were SA2 voices around back in 1999???

Good to know about using Style Volume when using the VH2 processor. I have a Digitech Vocalist Live 4 unit on the floor and I use that rather than my Tyros 4 VH2 because it does a somewhat better pitch correction job than the keyboard (which I need) and switching harmonies in and out or changing presets is a lot easier with 4 foot switches on the unit.

Chris