Y-Style16ch program

[BogdanH]

hi korg1,

Hi, i am new Genos2 owner, coming from Korg Pa4x,
and it looks like without all these helpful utilities ,we wouldn't have really any way to do proper styles.
...

Sadly, you're right: Korg is way ahead of Yamaha in this regard -I try not to think much about this, because it makes me angry

Would it be easy to add a ''copy'' function between variations?

At least for me, it would definitely not be "easy" -but is possible, of course.. it always is.

This way, we could have the first pattern on variation A ,the second on Variation B , then move all tracks from B(8-16) to Variation A (1-8) , leaving Variation B totally empty ,
so then we could have all chords playing on Variation A (9-16) and when we press (1+5) the pattern changes to upbeat using (1-8).

Interesting idea!
But before I even start thinking about how to make a "copy" function, let me try to explain something:

As I have shown in the video, channels 1-8 must be mapped to channels 9-16. Let's say Ch3 is mapped to Ch14... in this case the voice that is assigned to Ch14, will also be used for Ch3 -that is, Ch14 is a master channel.
What does that mean for your idea (using ch1-8 for 1+5) is: no matter what voices we assign to Ch9-16 in MainB, after channels are copied to Ch1-8 in MainA (and mapped to Ch9-16), those channels will use the voices that are assigned to Ch9-16 in MainA.
In short: channels 1-8 will have the same voices as channels 9-16. This is also true for other global settings on channels 9-16 (volume, pan, effect, etc.).

And here's the question: is this Ch1-8 mapping behavior problematic in case of your "1+5 upbeat" idea?
If you haven't already, then I suggest you first try to make (1+5) style with my program as it is. I know it's a lot of copying... and let me know if the style will work the way you imagine.

Update
I need to correct myself.. be more precise actually:
As from example above (Ch3 mapped to Ch14).. we can have different voices in those two channels, however if we change voice for Ch14 later on keyboard, then Ch3 will also get the same new voice -which we don't wish, of course.

There's probably another problem with switching to channels 1-8 by playing "special" (1+5) chord. Channels 1-8 will only sound properly if they have the setting:
NTR=Root Transpose
NTT=Bypass
That is, we can not have chord progressions within octave (chord inversions) in Ch1-8, because that's only possible if:
NTR=Root Fixed
NTT=Chord

I know.. it's confusing. That's why I suggested that you try first with few channels only and see if you can get expected result.
All above has less to do with copying channels from MainB to MainA -I only wonder if copying would be useful for what you wish to accomplish.

Greetings, Bogdan

[korg1]

I guess i have to try out.
all tracks 1-8 will use the same sounds as tracks 8-16 ,they will just play different accent when i play a (1+5) chord,that's the idea.
on Korg's that can be done easy,especially on variations,
you can use up to 6 cv ,and only limitation is the time signature (not really),
you can also have different amount of bars for each of them..

Now,on Yamaha's .....i can build the style by using midisong to style software , inluding the channels 1-8 .
Y-Style16ch loaded the style ,and i could see tracks 1-8 as well,but couldn't link them to channels 9-16 ,maybe i was trying the wrong way,as it was my first time exploring your software.
I will try it again and let you know if i manage to do it.

If not, then i am thinking of creating each variation partially again and again till i manage to include all 16tracks in one variation .
As you said,it's a lot of copying and copying and moving ,but i will give it a try....bad thing is that i have to do it on two variations for sure,
otherwise i will create another style,and just assign them to registrations.

I will try the hard way first anyway,
thank you for your help once again

greetings

[BogdanH]

hi korg1,

all tracks 1-8 will use the same sounds as tracks 8-16 ,they will just play different accent when i play a (1+5) chord,that's the idea.

-and that's what I see as interesting idea. If that would work as expected, then we would practically have two Main variations (MainA and MainB) in a single MainA variation.. and we would switch to second variation (which is now in Ch1-8) by playing "1+5" chords.

As I have mentioned, the problem (or limitation) is, in this case we can not use NTR=Root Fixed setting for channels 1-8. Because Root Fixed tracks sound wrong if we play them with 1+5 (two keys do not define full chord).

You can make a quick experiment: record E3-G3-C4 notes into Ch12 (=Chd1) and make the following settings for it in SFF (on keyboard):
Source Chord=C
Source Type=Maj
NTR=Fixed
NTT=Chord
Save the style and run it.
First play C chord by pressing C+E+G (=full chord) and then play C chord by pressing C+G (=1+5). Result will be different, although you play the same chord and the same track.
If you change above setting to NTR=Transpose, then result will be the same for C+E+G and C+G and so that seems to be the solution. The problem is, in that case you can not have chord inversions in chords progressions (chord progression within octave).
Chord inversion (Root Fixed) is used in styles a lot for many instruments (guitar strumming, piano accompaniment, etc.) and I simply can't imagine a style without it.

Don't get me wrong.. I'm ready to think about making an option to copy tracks from one variation to another, but I simply see no benefit at this point. The thing is, we can already do that on keyboard (in Assembly panel). Of course we can not copy from ch9-16 to ch1-8 (which is the reason for this discussion).

on Korg's ...
you can use up to 6 cv ...

-that's one of the reasons why I'm seriously considering to buy Pa5X.
The only thing that holds me back is (as you have mentioned), Pa5X OS is still not finished (after 2+years!) -some essential options (that Yamaha does have) are still missing -for example, there's no "Multi-Select" (notes in track) option.

Now,on Yamaha's....i can build the style by using midisong to style software ...

I don't use "MIDI Song to Style" and so I can not guarantee that my program will properly handle the styles created by "MIDI Song to Style".
Of course, I did try "MIDI Song to Style" and in my opinion it is usable only for very simple midi songs. If midi song is just slightly more complex (i.e. if it contains chord variations in some of the tracks), then it's impossible to create a useful style.
Btw. MIDI Song to Style also contains bugs and so it can happen that generated style is not usable.

Bogdan

[korg1]

Pa5x is missing a great feature that pa4x has,and that isn't just midi to style on board, as you can do on pa4x ,
though it doesn't always works good either,
but all utilities that exist in sequencer, and that is for example add or remove guitar RX notes to a midi track,
something like turning normal voices into megavoices with guitar mode on Yamaha's.

Pa5x is surely an unstable Os , even pa4x still has serious bug in songbook that can lead to restart during live gig, but as always Korg denies everything about it.

I wouldn't bother bying a pa5x ,that's the reason i chose to convert or rebuild/create over 1200styles i use on pa4x into yamaha's format .
It's a lot of work o know, and i have to deal with new phylosophy and limitations and time scedule,and it will take over a year ,but i am willing to do it.
I prefer it than having restarts and freezing keyboard while giging,or missing beats cause arranger can't handle different time signatures like happens on pa5x.
It seems it's problems aren't gonna ever solve,but that is my opinion after having pa4x sitting at home for over 1year,till a more stable Os come out.


I will let you know if i manage to do the style or not,and if variation will work as expected or not.
I hope i can make it work

greetings

[JDavis]

Where can I find your latest version ?
Thanks, Jeff

[BogdanH]

Y-Style16ch updated to v1.2.2
-tiny bug removed: previous versions didn't show content/settings for BREAK variation.
(download available at beginning of this topic)

Bogdan

[JDavis]

Thanks for the update, Bogdan !
Jeff

[korg1]

Seems to work fine.
Only problem is if using both Rhythm1 and Rhythm2 ,and you want to assign to bth of them another cv, then second sv disappears from one of them .
I also tried as follow:

first copied to my variation Rhythm 1-->Rhythm1 cv1 and second cv to Rhythm 2 .
Then moved them to Phrase2 track and linked them to channel16.
Copied both cvs for rhythm 2 to Rhythm 1 and rhyhm 2 ,linked them to channel 10 and moved previous phrase2 (both cvs that hold rhythm1) to Rhythm1 and linked them to channel 9 .
Now, second cv for Rhythm2 disappeared .


Then i tried something else...
Moved suchesfully both cv's for Rhythm1 to Variacion C and Rhythm2 cv's to Variation D .
But i had to combine them again into Variation C ,so i copied on keyboard usiing Assembly function Rhythm2 from Variation D to Rythm 2 on Variation C.
It looked i managed to doi it right? I should have by now both Rythm1 and Rythm2 holding two cvs' each.

Until i tried it and i saw that both second cvs dissapeared from Variation C.

Conclusions :

1)on keyboard you cannot copy to and from rhythm1&2 to other parts.
2)On keyboard if you copy for example,something from Variation D to Variation C a let's say a track that holds two cv's ,only one cv will be copied.
3)On rhythm2 track that i had succesfully assigned two cv's,just when i copied something to Rhythm1 track, Rhythm1 missed the second cv .

That's why i think we need the copy funtction,as
Maybe that could be done via software and work

greetings

[BogdanH]

@korg1

Interesting finding
At first I was wondering what you mean by saying CV "disappears" and because I haven't tried CV's for Rhy1/Rhy1 before, I have tested what you described. You're basically right.

Ok, the content of CV doesn't really disappear -note sequence is still there. The problem is, if we modify/edit the style later on keyboard, then all channels that are mapped to Rhy1 or Rhy2, are automatically converted to that mapped channel. For example, if Ch4 is mapped to Rhy2, then Ch4 content is converted to Ch10 (Rhy2)... that is, content of Ch4 is added to Ch10, Ch4 disappears and CV has gone.
Means, it's enough if we later only change the voice for Rhy1/Rhy2 and CV will "disappear".

Conclusion: based on your finding (and I confirm that), Yamaha styles do not support CV in Rhy1 and Rhy2 tracks!
-maybe that's why we can not copy the content, for example from Rhy2 to Chd1 (or opposite).

2)On keyboard if you copy for example,something from Variation D to Variation C a let's say a track that holds two cv's ,only one cv will be copied.

hmm... I have tried again and I could copy a track (Chd1) with two CV's from MainA to MainB on keyboard and as expecting, resulting track on MainB had both two CV's. Maybe there's a special case when that doesn't work? No idea... maybe I should make more tests.

Of course we can do anything on PC (copy tracks at will, combine CV's, etc.) but it's important that keyboard will also play them properly (also in case when the style is modified later on keyboard).
Because of that, I'm now thinking that it would be better if I remove the option to map tracks to Ch9 and Ch10.

Thank you for sharing your finding

Bogdan

[hans1966]

Hello Bogdan H, I just downloaded your program.

I have always liked to create my own styles, but always starting from a base style.

I think that with your program I will be able to design my own styles in detail from scratch.

I haven't sat down to work with your program yet, due to repertoire assembly and rehearsals for weddings and December novenas.

The first thing I will do is watch your explanatory video as many times as necessary before diving into your program.

greetings

Hans

[korg1]

I noticed that too ,after posting here, while trying to change a sound or even mix, i was always loosing Rhythm2's second cv .
No need to remove anything,as it works as long as secong cv goes to Rhythm1 for example.
It's just you can't have two Rhythm tracks holding 2cv's each. That's my guess,otherwise it works.

It would be a great help though if we could copy via software parts from another variation along with their cv's ,i hope you can do it someday .

greetings

[BogdanH]

hi Hans,

...
I think that with your program I will be able to design my own styles in detail from scratch.

I'm afraid that my program won't help you much at that. The thing is, to use the program for what it is intended, you first need (to learn how) to create a style from scratch.
When you have time, I recommend you to watch my video tutorial series (link in my signature), which will hopefully give you initial push and point you into the right direction -the rest is up to you
Once you're familiar with basic style creation, you will better understand what purpose my program serves.

Greetings, Bogdan

[BogdanH]

No need to remove anything,as it works as long as secong cv goes to Rhythm1 for example.
It's just you can't have two Rhythm tracks holding 2cv's each. That's my guess,otherwise it works.

Hmm.. I don't understand.
I tried again many combinations and CV (that is mapped to Rhy1 or Rhy2) always disappears if style is later edited on keyboard -it's enough if we only change volume on Rhy channel (in Mixer while we're in StyleCreator) and CV is lost. Because of that, I would never make a CV on Rhy channels.
And that's why I don't understand when you say "otherwise it works".

[korg1]

You are right,it does dissapear usualy after changing something like volume mix etc.
What i have understand and i think Yamaha writes it into some manual too , is that
you can use only one Rhythm cv, if you need a second,you can only use the other Rhythm track.

My guess is that Yamaha leaves it for future porposes, just like intro 4 and ending4 .

That's the first reason i asked to leave it as it is, since it can still work for someone who needs all of the track instances and is not planning making any future changes .

Second reason is the flexibility of moving things around since there is no copy paste option yet ,between variations etc.

In my case, i was thinking how to do this kind of things with Genos ,before even i place an order for it.
I was very worried about it ,as i use to do it on Korg's all the time.

This way it saves time for me when for example i need a ''Tutti'' but i don't want to count the bars till i play it or worry about if i press the fill button,at the right time ,and sometimes there is no time really to press anything,or you want to do it at any time you feel.
Having different cv's on hand and on chords is very handfull.

On Korg's it's just so easy,as you can export any cv idividual or the whole style as one midi file, edit it in daw and load it back into the style .

I am very happy and pleased, i managed to do after 4 days a full style, that holds second cv's on all 4 variations,all thanks to you and your software,
it's a great help.

greetings

[BogdanH]

..
What i have understand and i think Yamaha writes it into some manual too , is that
you can use only one Rhythm cv, if you need a second,you can only use the other Rhythm track.

Yes, I think that's the reason for having two Rhy tracks.

My guess is that Yamaha leaves it for future porposes, just like intro 4 and ending4 .

As far I could read, four Intros/Endings were only implemented in PSR-2000 (back in 2001) and Yamaha ditched that idea later. Seriously, who needs four Intros/Endings?

That's the first reason i asked to leave it as it is, since it can still work for someone who needs all of the track instances and is not planning making any future changes.

You convinced me... someone will maybe wish to experiment and so I will leave as it is now.

Yeah, Yamaha cannot really compare with Korg in this regard. But having the possibility for CV's on Yamaha, is at least something (even 3rd party software is needed to accomplish that).
I just need to repeat myself for the n'th time: CV's are available on Yamaha for 20+ years and during all those years, Yamaha didn't made it available for customers. And that makes me wonder: when will we get options that don't even exist on Yamaha yet?

I'm glad to hear that the program is useful for you -it's the best reward I can get
Greetings, Bogdan