Does showing the cover of a book you have for sale on eBay v

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Does showing the cover of a book you have for sale on eBay v

Unread post by jackma08 » Mon May 30, 2011 2:55 am

Does showing the cover of a book you have for sale on eBay violate the electronic reproduction prohibition?
I like to buy and sell used art instruction books on eBay. Now one of the artists I know says doing this violates her copyright because she specifically states that no electronic reproduction of her materials is permitted.
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Re: Does showing the cover of a book you have for sale on eB

Unread post by parametric » Mon May 30, 2011 10:36 am

I have no specialist knowledge in the area of intellectual property law - however I would suggest that showing the cover of a book serves only to identify it to prospective purchasers and as such would not violate copyright in the CONTENTS. I.E you are NOT reproducing the CONTENTS - just the cover.

As the sale of secondhand/second user books has happened since "forever". It seems unlikely that this would constitute a violation of copyright IMHO. If there WAS a problem in this area, then second hand bookshops would not be able to display their "wares" in the window - clearly nonsense . . . . .

I am not a lawyer however, and the law often flies in the face of "Common Sense".
I cannot see that showing the cover of a published book denies the copyright holder a fee to which he/she is entitled - which is the real reason behind such protestations - and justifiabley so - Its their living after all.

As far as I know, there is no restriction on the re-sale of "used" books.

Perhaps eBay can answer this "basic" question?
Alternatively ask the Citizen's Advice Bureau, or a lawyer . . . .

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Re: Does showing the cover of a book you have for sale on eB

Unread post by Saul » Mon May 30, 2011 10:22 pm

Like Chris i am not a copyright lawyer but, she may well have a point since she has specifically licensed the artwork under terms and conditions that expressly prohibit "electronic reproduction" of her work and this is the crux of the matter, you have "copied" her work in order to display it on Ebay.

I'm not sure there would be any mileage in her taking this to court though. Probably the most she could do is get Ebay to ask you to remove the image which, I think is a bit daft because as an artist you would think she would want the publicity? Perhaps a credit to her on the advert might help?
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Re: Does showing the cover of a book you have for sale on eB

Unread post by parametric » Mon May 30, 2011 11:29 pm

Good point, well made - Saul. Offering to credit her is a fine idea.

Possibly a good approach would be to apologise for your oversight, and ask her permission to show the cover . . .

I haven't checked, but I suspect Ebay's position on this is that you either OWN the copyright, OR you have the permission of the copyright owner.

an email from her, granting permission would cover you, and reassure her that she was in control of the dissemination of her work . . . .

If you can secure the lady's permission you would satisfy Ebay's copyright regulations regarding the use of copyright materials.

Best Regards

parametric
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Re: Does showing the cover of a book you have for sale on eBay v

Unread post by Derek » Tue May 14, 2019 6:28 am

And this is where future EU copyright legislation is going to make this far worse.....

EDIT - sorry didn’t realise this was such an old post. I saw it in “related posts” when replying to another.
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Re: Does showing the cover of a book you have for sale on eBay v

Unread post by Saul » Tue May 14, 2019 10:09 am

That is a very good point though Derek. Technically we cannot reproduce images like that under the new legislation, at least not without the copyright holders permission.

I have started trying to only use photos taken or created by us now, where possible anyway. Or those provided by manufacturers. The EU has thrown everyone under the bus. The people who passed this legislation are not the ones who will be affected by it. So easy for them to sit there in the EU parliament bubble and pass laws like this and yet have no inkling whatsoever of the consequences.
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Re: Does showing the cover of a book you have for sale on eBay v

Unread post by puremusic » Tue May 14, 2019 10:56 am

I thought in the US I'd be able to avoid EU restrictions but then pretty much every website enabled the 'cookie warning', and as an obnoxious inline popup too.

I have no idea what's going on with the new copyright legislation out there, but I assume I'll find out eventually when everyone starts toeing the line.
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Re: Does showing the cover of a book you have for sale on eBay v

Unread post by Saul » Tue May 14, 2019 1:31 pm

That is because any US site that is visible to people in the EU...so just about all sites, needs to comply with EU regulation or make the site unavailable to us.

The problem is that the people thinking up all this legislation are completely unqualified for the task so they take the "sledgehammer to crack a nut" approach and make it a complete pain in the ass for everyone.

Having said that, the web industry only have themselves to blame because they spent the last decade or so harvesting people's personal info, mostly without their consent. And where consent was requested it was often buried in hundreds of pages of terms & conditions they knew no one would read. On top of that, data was often not held securely and fell into the hands of hackers and spammers.

So yes something needed to be done but it is bolting the stable door long after the horse has disappeared into the sunset. For people browsing the web it is inconvenient but for those of us that own and run websites it is mountain to climb :(
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Re: Does showing the cover of a book you have for sale on eBay v

Unread post by puremusic » Tue May 14, 2019 3:46 pm

I remember the wild west days when things started out on the Internet quite well. Happier times. Now it's all moving to monopolies, instead of each individual controlling their content. The big companies and governments want control. Well, if I don't control my temper this thread'd have to be moved to the 'rant' section! :x
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Re: Does showing the cover of a book you have for sale on eBay v

Unread post by Saul » Tue May 14, 2019 4:05 pm

Pleaser rant away. I don't think you will find anyone disagreeing ;)
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Re: Does showing the cover of a book you have for sale on eBay v

Unread post by puremusic » Tue May 14, 2019 5:14 pm

Let me just put it this way, I am one angry bird! :angry-fire:
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Re: Does showing the cover of a book you have for sale on eBay v

Unread post by Derek » Tue May 14, 2019 6:16 pm

Saul wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 10:09 am
The EU has thrown everyone under the bus. The people who passed this legislation are not the ones who will be affected by it. So easy for them to sit there in the EU parliament bubble and pass laws like this and yet have no inkling whatsoever of the consequences.
That’s the problem with the EU in general. It sits in a bubble in a world that does not exist anymore ;) I’ll stop at that point!
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Re: Does showing the cover of a book you have for sale on eBay v

Unread post by EX5_etc » Wed May 15, 2019 3:34 am

Derek wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 6:16 pm
I’ll stop at that point!
Please, don't stop, keep going. It's political correctness after all, and on both sides of the pond we have a lot of people that do nothing else but shoot themselves on the foot, every single day.

The only reason the original question came up is because the "holder" of the copyright wanted to sell more new books. Advertising a used copy spoiled the profit margin for her. To me she is nothing more than one of those creeps that look in the mirror every morning, admire themselves for all they have "accomplished" and feel good about it.

Again, go on all of you, and rant the hell out of this story.

DrF
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Re: Does showing the cover of a book you have for sale on eBay v

Unread post by Saul » Wed May 15, 2019 9:16 am

Copyright is all about licensing. What many people do not realise is that when you purchase something you are often only buying a license to use the physical item or non tangible goods for personal use. Distribution, copying etc are often expressly prohibited.

Selling a used item is something we all do and has become accepted "fair use" but I would guess that technically none of us have an explicit right to do so under current copyright legislation...if a copyright holder were to press a claim that is.

Derek would know more about this because I am pretty sure he would not want people reselling his software? Or at least there would need to be a mechanism in place that prevents two copies of the software being licensed at the same time or something like that?

In the case of this book on Ebay it depends entirely on what the copyright holder had included in his/her copyright contract. Each one is individual so if it expressly prohibits the sale of used copies whilst the original copyright is in force then he/she would be able to enforce that...difficult as it may be.

I know it all seems a lot of fuss over nothing and for most of us it usually is...unless it is our own copyright being infringed of course ;) And in the case of the book my guess is a judge would view it in the same way. The person selling the used book is not copying and distributing the original work for profit and selling loads of copies. So I don't think a case would stand any realistic chance of succeeding.
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Re: Does showing the cover of a book you have for sale on eBay v

Unread post by EX5_etc » Wed May 15, 2019 2:20 pm

Then go to California where people have neighborhood book exchange posts, a small bookcase on the side of a sidewalk open to everyone to put a used book in there or borrow one to read and hopefully return it. They are stocked frequently by the residents of the neighborhood. Nobody pays to read a copyrighted book. Like you do in a library. Should we start charging according to how many times a library gave a book to someone to read it?

I have expressed my views before and I'll do it again. I don't care about what everybody says or what the law says. When I buy something, it is mine to do whatever I want with it. The code inside a CD is mine, period. I can hack it, modify it, copy it. But I cannot sell it either as it is (if I have used the license key), or modified, or as part of my code. That's stealing.

The same goes for hardware. I can buy a camera and modify it or remove parts from it that otherwise nobody would sell to me. Or change a tool to something that it was not meant to be. Or put another 100 hp to a car. And on and on and on.

It has been going on for ever and it will go on for ever. A law or contract will not stop a naturally occurring practice because some people feel entitled to enforce political correctness mostly in order to profit from it.

More rant anyone?

DrF
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