SY77 data vs. SY99 data

The Yamaha SY99 is a synthesiser combining frequency modulation synthesis (branded as Advanced FM) and sample-based synthesis (branded as Advanced Wave Memory 2) and the direct successor to Yamaha's SY77/TG77

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SY77 data vs. SY99 data

Unread post by JK1974 » Fri Nov 09, 2012 11:04 pm

Hi,

after having "rediscovered" my SY99 after a lot of years, I started sorting my soundbanks (see the PD thread below) - and transfered syx files yesterday for the first time after only having used Txx (and seldom Jxx) before.

- There are a lot of SY77 syx files in my collection, but they seem not to be accepted by the SY99. I know from the past that system exclusive data is only meant for the device they are made for. However, I thought that SY77 and SY99 are kind of compatible - apart from the effects part. To transfer SY77 syx data to the SY99, is a conversion of the syx data necessary to make it be accepted by the SY99? Do I need e.g. "SY Manager" or "sy.factory" for this task?
- If I load SY77 data (via syx or from SY77 files) to the SY99 and save it again to disk (in SY77 disk format), does the resulting SY77 file contain all the SY77 data including the effects information or is this or other information being altered when it has been loaded into the SY99 before?
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Re: SY77 data vs. SY99 data

Unread post by Clyde » Fri Nov 09, 2012 11:58 pm

I can't answer all of your questions, but I'll give some information. All of my SY77 native file format disks will load directly to my SY99 via disk drive, but you do have to edit the effects once they are on the 99 as the two differing effects units. Any file that is on an SY99, regardless of where it originated, when saved in SY77 format will generate a file that will load on the SY77, but you will still have to edit effects as the SY99 does not create SY77 effects settings when you save the file in SY77 format. For SY77 syx files, it may simply be a matter of changing the address string of hex code to reflect SY99 instead of SY77. Some editor /librarian software may expedite this process, software users will have to address that issue for you as I took the computer out of my keyboard rig many years ago.
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Re: SY77 data vs. SY99 data

Unread post by Sonus » Sat Nov 10, 2012 11:16 am

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Re: SY77 data vs. SY99 data

Unread post by Derek » Sat Nov 10, 2012 11:43 am

Hi.

I have an SY77 and TG77, and now a recently acquired SY99. As well as the effects being different, the AWM Waves are in a different order and expanded across different banks with additional waves mixed in, so some form of conversion is always going to be needed; either what the SY99 does itself, which I haven't looked at yet, or a computer program like sy.factory.

I wrote some basic SY99 support about two years into sy.factory, but in hindsight, it wasn't a good idea, as I couldn't test the MIDI integration side without an SY99. Now I have an SY99 I am correcting some the MIDI issues that are now obvious having the synth in front of me! 8O :oops:

Once I have basic MIDI issues sorted, I'll be looking at SY77 to SY99 transfer, including a batch facility to perform it in one go, followed by custom Wave/Sample integration, which is something I couldn't figure out at the time I did the original support (to reverse engineer synth formats, when it's non obvious, you need the synth in front of you to make incremental parameter changes to baseline files so you can do binary file compares to see what bytes in the file change and how).

Back to your immediate question, I just fired sy.factory up, loaded an SY77 SYSEX file into it and fired an SY77 voice into the SY99 edit buffer. It was accepted quite happily, but it looks like the SY99 doesn't do any effects translation when it receives an SY77 voice.

I also just tried firing over an few SY77 AWM voices to the SY99 edit buffer, and the SY99 does seem to map the SY77 AWM wave numbers over to the SY99 wave set.

So in theory you should be able send SY77 SYSEX files to the SY99, and you'll get everything bar the effects.

The reason for this, in a little more detail, is that the MIDI implementation differences between the SY77 and SY99 are like the difference between the DX7 and DX7II. I.e. two very closely related synths that retained some backwards compatibility. Yamaha did this by, for example on the DX7 augmenting the DX7 VCED/VMEM (Voice Edit Buffer/Voice Memory) SYSEX dumps with DX7II specific ACED/AMEM dumps.

So when dealing with DX7II data you have all the data in two SYSEX messages: The VCED and ACED messages and the VMEM and AMEM messages, and you have to send both to get DX7II voices. This means that if you just have DX7 VCED/VMEM messages that the DX7II will still recognize them as "native" DX7 voices.

The SY77/99 take the same approach. The SY77 Voice SYSEX Message is an "LM 8101VC" format message (the VCED message), and SY99 additional data is stored in an "LM 0040VC" message (the AVCED message in SY99 parlance).

So if you have SY77 data in "LM 8101VC" format (one of these messages for each voice), then the SY99 is backwards compatible with this data, for everything (to my ears) except the effects.

Hope that helps.

Over the next few months, I'll be extending sy.factory to ensure that the SY99 is fully supported, including (hopefully) batch conversion between them. I also hope to do "on the fly conversion", which I achieved in an.factory for the AN1x, AN200 and PLG150-AN targets (all different!). The idea here is that you can load SY77 data, send it via MIDI to the SY99, and sy.factory will do the translation before sending the MIDI data without affecting the source file, or it may be an SY77 voice in the sy.factory library. With 15,000 SY77 voices in my sy.factory library, I don't really want to be duplicating them all in SY99 format! But sy.factory will have the tools to allow people to make their choices! :)

So you might want to hang fire on doing a whole load of manual translation, if you can wait a few months! :)
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Re: SY77 data vs. SY99 data

Unread post by JK1974 » Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:37 pm

Mmh, this is strange. I used the little "Electron C6" tool to transfer the syx files, but the SY99 did not react on any SY77 syx data I sent. I also just looked into the header, and the "LM 8101VC" is there, but as I said, something seems to go wrong as I don´t believe that C6 alters anything before transmission.

There is a deeper meaning in my question: As you have read in the PD thread, I started sorting the SY99 sounds by giving it proper names etc., trying to catalogue it with the tool clrmamepro. With the SY99 collection, I am nearly done for now because there are no more sets left in the public and I get no further information on non-public = commercial sets that have been sold.
So I wanted to start sorting the SY77 collection. But there I found a real chaos as there seem to be a lot of duplicates: Txx files, then the same content in Jxx and syx/midi files. But there could also be e.g. syx/midi data that have no equivalent as Jxx or Txx files.
That´s what my first question is aiming to: How to transfer them to the SY99, and especially: If I save them in SY77 format, do they really contain all SY77 data including the original SY77 effects settings or is anything lost so that only a SY77 user can create a "valid" Txx/Jxx equivalent?
The second question relates to a set that has been saved as SY99 set although it was only sold as SY77 (to be more precise: "SY77/SY99" set which we know about what it means). I would "revert it to the original state", saving it as SY77 set again, but I again need to know if anything is being altered. Maybe, I should simply take a SY77 Txx file, load it into the SY99, save it again (set to SY77 disk format), and do a file compare.
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Re: SY77 data vs. SY99 data

Unread post by Sonus » Sat Nov 10, 2012 5:53 pm

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Re: SY77 data vs. SY99 data

Unread post by Clyde » Sat Nov 10, 2012 6:21 pm

"When transmitted, SY77 EFX are lost, when loaded from disk, EFX are converted."

Well they are sort of converted, when I've loaded my SY77 files to the SY99 via disk, some of the EFX conversions are OK, some are "sort of close" and some are just waaaaay off, as far as I can see it is very hit or miss depending on which effects were used originally on the SY77. When loading SY77 files to my SY99, I just make it standard practice to listen to each voice after loading and plan on doing some effects edits if I really want it to sound good.
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Re: SY77 data vs. SY99 data

Unread post by JK1974 » Sat Nov 10, 2012 7:35 pm

Well, still no success here. I have attached one of the testfiles from my collection. But the SY99 does not react at all on this, even not with midi-ox (thanks for this hint). Does this maybe have to do with the firmware of the SY99? Here I have ROM V1.33 and SEQ V1.20 - I know that they are not the latest ones.
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Re: SY77 data vs. SY99 data

Unread post by Clyde » Sat Nov 10, 2012 8:10 pm

I can say that my SY99 has ROM version 1.57 which was the last revision Yamaha did and mine seems to have no problems with SY77 files, I don't know if there were issues with the earlier ROMs.
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Re: SY77 data vs. SY99 data

Unread post by Derek » Sat Nov 10, 2012 8:10 pm

I'll have no time over the weekend. After cooking (and eating) the stupendous Saturday night curry, I'm now practicing ready for a Pure Floyd gig tomorrow, which between traveling, setting up, playing, etc, will wipe out most of the day. So Monday/Tuesday I'll check your file.

Whilst playing about with MIDI transfers today to the SY99, I am seeing some strange behavior, which is that the Effect Type for Effect Block 2 is not always transferred over to the edit buffer; it defaults to "reverb hall", but only on some voices. Has anybody seen that before? It has me baffled.
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Re: SY77 data vs. SY99 data

Unread post by Sonus » Sat Nov 10, 2012 8:14 pm

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Re: SY77 data vs. SY99 data

Unread post by Clyde » Sat Nov 10, 2012 8:21 pm

Derek, see my posted answer three posts above yours. Though my experience with that was from disk load and not via midi.
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Re: SY77 data vs. SY99 data

Unread post by JK1974 » Sun Nov 11, 2012 2:56 am

I finally found the reasons for the problems: 1st of all, it was in fact not easy to find working syx data. E.g. I took some files from the directory "SY Artist Series" from the set "SY_TG.zip" available at http://www.knect.ie/yamaha.html and got a lot of errors (not transfered at all, checksum errors, not all voices uploaded from 01-64 which might also be the result of checksum errors).

Second, my Logilink UA0037 USB-to-MIDI adapter seems to be really of very low quality. While "simple" midi data seems to work without problems, syx data is not transfered reliably - MIDIBar always crashed when playing MIDI syx files before having transmitted all data, and windows always talked about a busy device if I tried to restart MIDIBar until I dis- and reconnected the USB adapter.
I am using now the midi ports of my Creative Labs Audigy2, and it worked out of the box without problems. Due to heavy driver problems in the past and very bad designed configuration software, I wanted to get rid of the Creative card in the near future and use (besides of a new soundcard) the USB-to-MIDI adapter instead to control my SY99 - that´s why the Creative MIDI port were just my second choice.

BTW: Thanks for the test files. They really showed the compatibility problems concerning the EFX... :(
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Re: SY77 data vs. SY99 data

Unread post by tux » Sun Nov 11, 2012 4:07 am

Yes, there are a lot of noname cheap USB to MIDI devices around that are very buggy. If you want a good quality USB to MIDI interface then try to get one from M-Audio (previously Midiman), I have both a Midisport 2x2 and a Midisport 4x4 and they both work flawlessly even with large sysex dumps and SDS (sample dump standard) uploads.
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Re: SY77 data vs. SY99 data

Unread post by Derek » Sun Nov 11, 2012 9:57 am

Clyde wrote:Derek, see my posted answer three posts above yours. Though my experience with that was from disk load and not via midi.
Clyde
Thanks, Clyde, but just to clarify these are SY99 voices in an SY99 TNN file that I am sending over MIDI.

I need to get the SY99 floppy drive fixed (I've just ordered the belt) so that I can load the same file via disk to see what happens.
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